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Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible oblig

• FiatLuxDave 8y ago
  I'm not quite sure what to say, except that I found what you just wrote to be quite beautiful. I hope you find many fires to warm yourself at.
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  • sleepyandlazy 8y ago
    +1 One of the best life analogies I’ve ever heard.
• gizmo686 8y ago
  > Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship. I don't meen this cynically, but isn't this the entire idea behind modern marriage. (Of course marriage adds an expectation of reciprocity, which is what keeps us from viewing it as exploitative; and an expectation of exclusivity, which seems orthogonal)
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• ricardo_ramirez 8y ago
  I like this idea a lot. It goes away from the regular though that you get a friend that is forever that is there for you for good and bad, and puts you into the driver seat. I also liked that it is in general a framework for being a good person. Where did you learn this? My Google search didn't get that far
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• hnphillipj 8y ago
  This is a very selfless way of living, and for that you have my respect. But the chief cause of loneliness for many people is the fear that the person they were waiting for will never come: There is a fire which burns inside me, but no-one stays 'round long enough to warm themselves. Knowing this, if you can truly remain steadfast in your positive outlook on life, then you have achieved true strength. Hard to do in an oversocialized world.
  • sizzle 8y ago
    Meditation, mindfulness, and stoicism is my antidote to deriving happiness and self identity from others. This campfire model explains how I've been treating relationships and staving loneliness. Those who don't stay around long enough is expected/anticipated and my baseline value, anything that deviates towards staying around longer gives me energy rather than drains it towards depression/loneliness. Keeping busy with social hobbies helps. I feel like loneliness is somehow related to the lack of connecting with others on a human level, assuming it isn't caused by lack of certain neurotransmitters where meds will help balance you out.
  • toomanybeersies 8y ago
    But the person you're waiting for may never come. Life isn't some romance movie where you're destined to meet "the one". I've learned to embrace that and have taken solace in living in the moment with the people around me instead of wondering what else could be out there and what I might be missing out on.
• waffle_ss 8y ago
  Could you elaborate more concretely about this campfire model? edit: Asking because I'm having a hard time visualizing the metaphor applied to reality. Do you find/make friends ("campers"?) differently? Would they consider you a friend, or are these relationships more broad with less depth? How does maintaining the fire relate to maintaining friendships? Are you just a support person handing out favors with little expectation of reciprocity? If so does that feel fulfilling compared to deeply investing in a smaller number of people?
  • barking 8y ago
    Yes that was what I was wondering too.
  • modeless 8y ago
    I have known several people who hosted regular casual Wednesday night dinner parties. They were very low-key and generally based around some activity like going to a farmer's market or watching a movie or playing board games. It was generally understood that anyone who was a regular attendee could invite their own guests. So while the parties started with a small group of friends from work, they grew to be a more diverse set of people over time. People would drift in and out and attendance would be different each week. Although I moved away and don't really keep in touch, I have fond memories of those get-togethers and still consider the people I met at those parties friends. I really like the analogy of a campfire for something like this. All it takes to start a little community is one person to provide a regular meeting place, something to do, and, crucially, some food.
    • GeorgeTirebiter 8y ago
      Exactly. Here in SV, there is the Monday Night Pizza Klatch that is exactly that -- a group of geeks get together to be with like-minded geeks and eat pizza. It's been going for probably a decade or so now; and sometimes various famous and semi-famous SV geeks float in.
  • lgregg 8y ago
    I much like u/modeless had a similar experience. I personally really like board games and would host or facilitate weekly board game nights. To be more specific: - Do you find/make friends ("campers"?) differently? No, I just have space and time during the week where people pass through or remain for a season of life (or more). I still make acquaintances doing other activities in my life which grow into friendships at varied depths. - Would they consider you a friend, or are these relationships more broad with less depth? I would say all of the above, it depends on what you're defining as a friend. If everyone that isn't a stranger is your friend. Yes, I imagine so. I personally would say that I have made several friends who bring in people who are friends of friends, so an acquaintance to me at least initially. I also have the occasional person whom I invite from another part of my life that I don't feel stranger-danger about being in my home. - How does maintaining the fire relate to maintaining friendships? If they're present, then it's a bonding activity. If they're not, it's something that they've bonded over. - Are you just a support person handing out favors with little expectation of reciprocity? I'm not the guy that pumps your gas, if that is what you're asking.
• antisthenes 8y ago
  Having once experienced true deep friendship, like everything, it sets your standard perhaps irrevocably too high. I've found the campfire model to produce a lot of mental distress and anguish, since no one is invested in anyone, there's no incentive to grow and as time passes, you start viewing these passing relationships as disposable. Don't get me wrong, the campfire model is fine as an aspect of general hospitality, but to truly call these passersby your friends would not be correct. They don't contribute to your safety net, nor are you likely in turn to contribute to theirs. Perhaps I'm not as selfless as you. I just want to be surrounded by people who have "skin in the game", because true friendship and a sense of camaraderie is only built through overcoming difficulties together. > Because sometimes that person who sits down at your fire is the person you have been waiting for, and only by making a seat for them were you able to ever meet It's a nice analogy, but a little too romanticized for me.
  • phkahler 8y ago
    >> you start viewing these passing relationships as disposable. I would say that all relationships are temporary. Even in marriage, one party usually dies before the other and that person has then left for good. To realize that relationships are inherently temporary does not mean they are disposable - that word suggests something of low value, like garbage. When you accept that things are temporary perhaps it will help you appreciate the people who stick around, or come indoors from the cold/campfire and stay longer. It's not easy to accept the world this way. It requires (and fosters) a sense of peace with oneself among other things. That's something worth working toward even if you're not there yet.
    • keiferski 8y ago
      This definition of “temporary” defeats the entire purpose of the word. There’s a massive difference between “a lifetime” and “a day, a month, a year”.
      • tremon 8y ago
        Redefining all "temporary" friendships as disposable also defeats the purpose of the word, and is in my eyes much more detrimental to your surroundings than accepting that friendships are (might be) temporary.
• dgzl 8y ago
  An anecdote supporting your first point: I became very close friends with a a guy about my age when I started college. We had lots of awesome adventures, moved in together, and lasted about 7 years together. Eventually I got a job that required me to move away. I started making great money and my life was changing. After only a few years I quit the job and moved back home to be closer to my family and friends, specially this guy. I seem to have forgotten the nasty, irrational and mean-spirited aspects of his personality. When I returned, I was reminded that our friendship and fun time was also dependant on his reckless and insensitive behavior, of which I've always resented, and tried to shed from my own life over the years. Now that I'm back home, I'm remembering his full personality, and realizing what a chore it was putting up with sometimes.
• ericjang 8y ago
  Wow, this was profound and I hope this way of thinking will make a big difference in my life going forward. Thank you for this!
• RickS 8y ago
  Do you blog/tweet/etc other thoughts about this kind of thing? That's a great philosophy and I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on surrounding topics.
• eternalny1 8y ago
  This campfire analogy is brilliant, and I am going to start thinking of life more in this manner. Thanks for that.
• parf02 8y ago
  thank you for writing this. It makes me reflect. As I grow older, I realize more and more than connections in life come and go. Life is really a passing of many different people in your story. Some will stay for very long while some will only be there for a short bit of time.
• thewarrior 8y ago
  May I message you ? I feel you can help and advice me about a difficult situation.
  • digitalsushi 8y ago
    Sure! Hit my profile.
• deleted 8y ago
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• glennericksen 8y ago
  Reminded of this bit from Carl Rogers’ “A Way of Being”. “People are just as wonderful as sunsets if you let them be. When I look at a sunset, I don't find myself saying, "Soften the orange a bit on the right hand corner." I don't try to control a sunset. I watch with awe as it unfolds.”
• raws 8y ago
  Someone called this selfless but I see a very strong selfishness in this approach, sure you're at the center of your life but if we all stand by our own fires, nobody meets anybody and it is important to recognize when you go sit by someone else's fire because that part is dearly missing from your description.
  • spondyl 8y ago
    I suppose a campfire implies the person tending it is stationary but metaphorically, I imagined our campfires are all moving not unlike spaceships coming in and out of docking. Travellers come and go but they inhabit the same space rather than them all travelling to and from one person.
• stopyellingatme 8y ago
  I don't have any critique or anything to add. I just want to say that this resonates with me very deeply. I'm very happy to have this complex feeling articulated in such a beautiful way. Thank you for sharing.
• toomanybeersies 8y ago
  This is probably the most beautiful thing I've read on HN. > Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship. It's taken me a long time to realise that relationships are not symmetrical, and that they aren't supposed to be. There are people who I feel very strongly towards (not necessarily romantically) who don't feel the same way back to me, and I'm certain that there are people who feel the same way towards me. Relationships are also not permanent. People come in to your life, and sometimes fade from your life. This isn't a bad thing either, but just a reality. There are a lot of people who I was good friends with who I'm not really in contact with any more (generally because I moved to a different city/country or they did). We all have our own journey in life which intersects with others. Sometimes we run straight past each other and sometimes we run parallel for a while. The quality of a relationship isn't measured in time. Some of the most genuine and meaningful interactions I've had have been with people I met only for a few days or even a few hours.
• apatters 8y ago
  The skeptic in me is very wary of romanticizing the campfire model. For me it has generated a lot of short term happiness but very few lasting, deeply committed relationships. And if you look at human history, this model is the exception, not the norm; virtually all civilizations across time have relied primarily on enduring family networks for support. In the past couple hundred years workplace and university networks have become sources of enduring relationships as well. We have good reasons to believe that these relationships are important to health, longevity and happiness. I would not hesitate to start a campfire and see what it yields but I also wouldn't expect it to yield what truly matters. The modern (western) world provides very little bedrock for people to build a psychological foundation. We argue with our families, our employers can dump us at any time, we divorce our spouses, friends are always moving on or marrying off. Contrast that to the model of multi-generational family based ties which has endured throughout history and I have to wonder, is our society even going to last in its current form? > Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship. This fixation on the spouse is kind of a modern oddity as well. In many societies past and present, your spouse, your parents, your kids, and maybe even your grandparents and grandkids are all of roughly equal importance.
  • cgoecknerwald 8y ago
    > "This fixation on the spouse is kind of a modern oddity as well. In many societies past and present, your spouse, your parents, your kids, and maybe even your grandparents and grandkids are all of roughly equal importance." Can you cite something for this?
    • apatters 8y ago
      The Wikipedia article on extended family looks like a good primer on the diversity of family structures that exists around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_family Rather than "everyone is roughly equal" it's probably more accurate to say that the degree of power, dependence and investment between family members varies dramatically from culture to culture. The nuclear model is certainly widespread in modern times, but multi-generational models are still very common, especially in Asia. The post-familial model, where Thanksgiving becomes Friendsgiving because you don't have any blood relatives you know and like, is surely the newest and rarest. I think having friends who are more important than extended family, let alone immediate family, is a pretty modern phenomenon.
• doyoulikeworms 8y ago
  I love these words so much. They hit home in a real way for me. Thank you for sharing them!
• keiferski 8y ago
  While this mentality seems comforting, make no mistake: its appeal is only a consequence of the erosion of family and community over the last 200 years in the western world. As a commenter said below: an avoidance of long-term commitments leads to a society that doesn’t plan very far into the future.
• drakonka 8y ago
  > Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship. Lately I feel like this about traditional romantic relationships as well. After a while many people start developing expectations of the other person and assume that they will or can meet all of your needs, when that's actually pretty unrealistic. I was in a six year relationship when I noticed that my partner wasn't meeting my needs anymore, and that my expectations of him which had grown over the years weren't really aligned with a healthy reality; this applied the other way around as well in terms of my partner's expectations of me as a person who's changed over the years. I recently left the relationship and am now re-examining my own outlook on the traditional relationship models.
  • jacobush 8y ago
    Right there too.
• circlefavshape 8y ago
  "it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship" Expectations aren't what friendship is about. A friendship is a little club where you conspire to make both your lives better
• Angostura 8y ago
  How does starting a campfire work in practice?
• 8bitsrule 8y ago
  I salute your wisdom, digitalsushi. On the days that weigh us down, we can remember our meetings (however brief) with people who are open and/or kind and/or thoughtful - as well as those who responded to a dilemma with a helpful solution and without expectations of gain. Calling such meetings 'mere romanticism' is to be blind to the fact that there is much about the world that we cannot comprehend. Sometimes coincidences pile up far beyond what the numbers declare possible. It's all lost on those who scoff ... and they may indeed die unnoticed.