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You mean in a manner similar to the united states at the moment? :^) China has some serious issues, but people acting like this is out of the norm is ridiculou

by s4vi0r 8y ago

You mean in a manner similar to the united states at the moment? :^) China has some serious issues, but people acting like this is out of the norm is ridiculous. The US is afraid of Chinas rising influence/power and these sorts of articles attacking it are a common tactic. Like, great - there's no explicit social credit system in the US on an app where you're barred from leaving the country because of who you're friends with. Instead, there's an implicit one where the NSA gets to spy on all your shit (similar to what happens in China), where you're arbitrarily put on a watch list or no-fly list (similar to China), and depending on your ethnicity and/or family you may get unjustly targeted by the state with no real way of defending yourself (again, similar to China). I'd almost prefer it be done the Chinese way, because at least then the problem is obvious. As it is in the states, like half the country can't even fucking agree that maybe there might be a problem with women & minority rights, immigration, police brutality, etc.

131012 8y ago
At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. On the other hand, I still agree that the phenomenon of rating people based on data is something that happens in the West too. Whenever you buy insurance, be assured that your whole life is scanned before you get a price.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  > At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. I assume you're white?
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    Exactly.
  - zimablue 8y ago
    This is a mental comparison. Leaving aside police gun deaths because that's it's own insane internal logic/world, do you think that black people in the US don't have more rights than Chinese citizens? So for example, what do you think would happen in both countries if a senior party official punched you on the street?
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      > what do you think would happen in both countries if a senior party official punched you on the street? In China they'd arrest you and that would be the last anyone ever heard of you. In the US the cops would show up and shoot you on site because they thought you had a gun. There'd be a 24 hour news cycle of outrage and then you'd be forgotten.
    - Vi0 8y ago
      Community service, win reelection, and a trivial fine in America.
    - riskneutral 8y ago
      > what would happen ... if a senior party official punched you ... Well we know what happens in the US, at least if you’re a journalist https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Jacobs_(journalist)#Gianforte_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Jacobs_(journalist)#Gian...
  - 131012 8y ago
    I won't disclose my predicates here apart from saying that I am not American, but I understand your rebuttal. Which brings me to another question for parent and children comments posters. You really think that the USA is an authoritarian regime similar to China? No rhetorics here, I'm really curious.
idoescompooters 8y ago
The US being "afraid of China's rising influence/power" is the perfect cocktail for war. All it needs is a 3rd party to ignite it... Let's hope we can work together.
- doanguyen 8y ago
  Another word: The Thucydides Trap
aplummer 8y ago
Look I totally agree the U.S and The West has plenty of problems that certainly to a degree match the Chinese issues. I could bang on about the prison industrial complex for hours. However I think a key difference is that on your issues "women & minority rights, immigration, police brutality" there is actually a huge number of people who disagree with you. I know it's messed up and they are deluded or afraid etc. but the fact is they get to vote too and they would rather women be subjugated, the country be white, Mexicans are rapists. This is (subjectively) "bad people" and lawmakers using democratic institutions to create these systems and enact change, which is fundamentally different IMO.
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
Ah that fresh whataboutism I’m always sure to see on any HN thread discussing Chinese human rights violations.
chrisco255 8y ago
No in the U.S. a handful out of a million cops are bad apples. Some legitimately find themselves in difficult-to-interpret life-or-death snap decisions on a daily or weekly basis and they get paid 1/4 or less of what some privileged engineer on HN does. And then a few bad apples plus a few legitimate accidents are over-analyzed as some proof of systemic racism in one of the most diverse countries on earth. Meanwhile, you want to talk about abuse of minority rights, take a look at China's treatment of its muslim population: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-detention-camp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-m... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-people-move-homes-xinjiang-china-religion-a8648561.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-m...
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > No in the U.S. a handful out of a million cops are bad apples “One bad apple spoils the whole bunch”. It may be a small number are directly-acting abusers of minorities. A much larger number, however, are active defenders of that small number against any accountability.
  - chrisco255 8y ago
    How so? Look at all the body cam and dash cam legislation.
    - locopati 8y ago
      Look at evidence planting, lying in police reports, refusal to prosecute those bad apples.
- s4vi0r 8y ago
  ACAB. The entire police system is inherently corrupt and racist and needs to be torn down. Also, regardless of whether or not its a few bad apples (hint: given how extremely fucking common these problems are, it absolutely is not just a few) the point still stands that the "not bad" cops are still guilty of supporting their coworkers and enabling their unacceptable behavior.
ameister14 8y ago
Yes, it's better to be obvious - so at least you know you're in for systematic torture by police in order to obtain a confession and everyone is SURE women and minorities don't deserve equal rights.

by s4vi0r 8y ago

131012 8y ago

At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. On the other hand, I still agree that the phenomenon of rating people based on data is something that happens in the West too. Whenever you buy insurance, be assured that your whole life is scanned before you get a price.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
> At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. I assume you're white?
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  Exactly.
- zimablue 8y ago
  This is a mental comparison. Leaving aside police gun deaths because that's it's own insane internal logic/world, do you think that black people in the US don't have more rights than Chinese citizens? So for example, what do you think would happen in both countries if a senior party official punched you on the street?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    > what do you think would happen in both countries if a senior party official punched you on the street? In China they'd arrest you and that would be the last anyone ever heard of you. In the US the cops would show up and shoot you on site because they thought you had a gun. There'd be a 24 hour news cycle of outrage and then you'd be forgotten.
  - Vi0 8y ago
    Community service, win reelection, and a trivial fine in America.
  - riskneutral 8y ago
    > what would happen ... if a senior party official punched you ... Well we know what happens in the US, at least if you’re a journalist https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Jacobs_(journalist)#Gianforte_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Jacobs_(journalist)#Gian...
- 131012 8y ago
  I won't disclose my predicates here apart from saying that I am not American, but I understand your rebuttal. Which brings me to another question for parent and children comments posters. You really think that the USA is an authoritarian regime similar to China? No rhetorics here, I'm really curious.

idoescompooters 8y ago

The US being "afraid of China's rising influence/power" is the perfect cocktail for war. All it needs is a 3rd party to ignite it... Let's hope we can work together.

doanguyen 8y ago
Another word: The Thucydides Trap

aplummer 8y ago

Look I totally agree the U.S and The West has plenty of problems that certainly to a degree match the Chinese issues. I could bang on about the prison industrial complex for hours. However I think a key difference is that on your issues "women & minority rights, immigration, police brutality" there is actually a huge number of people who disagree with you. I know it's messed up and they are deluded or afraid etc. but the fact is they get to vote too and they would rather women be subjugated, the country be white, Mexicans are rapists. This is (subjectively) "bad people" and lawmakers using democratic institutions to create these systems and enact change, which is fundamentally different IMO.

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago

Ah that fresh whataboutism I’m always sure to see on any HN thread discussing Chinese human rights violations.

chrisco255 8y ago

No in the U.S. a handful out of a million cops are bad apples. Some legitimately find themselves in difficult-to-interpret life-or-death snap decisions on a daily or weekly basis and they get paid 1/4 or less of what some privileged engineer on HN does. And then a few bad apples plus a few legitimate accidents are over-analyzed as some proof of systemic racism in one of the most diverse countries on earth. Meanwhile, you want to talk about abuse of minority rights, take a look at China's treatment of its muslim population: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-detention-camp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-m... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-people-move-homes-xinjiang-china-religion-a8648561.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-m...

dragonwriter 8y ago
> No in the U.S. a handful out of a million cops are bad apples “One bad apple spoils the whole bunch”. It may be a small number are directly-acting abusers of minorities. A much larger number, however, are active defenders of that small number against any accountability.
- chrisco255 8y ago
  How so? Look at all the body cam and dash cam legislation.
  - locopati 8y ago
    Look at evidence planting, lying in police reports, refusal to prosecute those bad apples.
s4vi0r 8y ago
ACAB. The entire police system is inherently corrupt and racist and needs to be torn down. Also, regardless of whether or not its a few bad apples (hint: given how extremely fucking common these problems are, it absolutely is not just a few) the point still stands that the "not bad" cops are still guilty of supporting their coworkers and enabling their unacceptable behavior.

ameister14 8y ago

Yes, it's better to be obvious - so at least you know you're in for systematic torture by police in order to obtain a confession and everyone is SURE women and minorities don't deserve equal rights.