6 ms·

US asks allies to avoid Huawei

85 points by LinuxBender 8y ago

alliecat 8y ago
Makes sense. The NSA can't backdoor the kit if China already have, right? I understand it's oft more nuanced than this, but the comment about glass houses comes to mind.
- z2 8y ago
  I wonder if the financial incentives (i.e. bribes) to avoid China also stipulate buying Cisco or Motorola. If not, I wonder if this will backfire and create a great opportunity for Fujitsu/Ericsson/Nokia to advertise their relative safety and independence.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  Is it hard to imagine that this is truly 100% backdoored by China's secret services? Nope. Avoiding it is the smart thing to do. Yes, NSA will try to do the same but China will also ask it's citizens to avoid known NSA backdoored devices.
- toyg 8y ago
  Yes, they are all bad, but at some point you will have to choose the lesser evil.
  - Merem 8y ago
    What is the "lesser evil" though? It highly depends on how you perceive things and issues.
    - friedman23 8y ago
      The lesser evil is the non American or Chinese alternatives. Namely Nokia and Ericsson.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  I do not think that the PLA will treat you as well as the NSA. If you are compromised by the PLA in America, you are a threat to national security. If you are compromised by NSA in America, you're likely of little interest. I, for one, would rather be a CIA, NSA, or CSIS puppet than a PLA one; because at least in the U.S. and Canada I and my countrymen have some concept of human rights.
- friedman23 8y ago
  Yes, because the CCP deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to state sponsored spying.
- unethical_ban 8y ago
  It feels like the NSA has the slightest bit of shame compared to China, culturally, about spying and how it's used. I don't like it, I fight it, and I support the EFF, but I still think the US is unequivocally better than the Chinese government. And why aren't there other sources of the highest tech networking gear? As someone said, what about the Japanese or the Swedes with their telecom? Or even open source hardware... it will be years before there is FOSS hardware for ISP routing, but oh well.
JCSato 8y ago
Other coverage that made it to the top of HN a few days ago: US asks allies to drop Huawei - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18513249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18513249
pteredactyl 8y ago
What about ZTE?
durpleDrank 8y ago
I don't want to be that guy but as scary and threatening as this all sounds if you just flip the script you can gain some empathy for citizens of every country the NSA spied on. For once, Americans and Europeans are starting to fear the same "invasion" that the rest of the world has been feeling for a while now. I just hope my countries team wins I guess?
- dtwest 8y ago
  That's kind of a weird point to make since the NSA spies on Americans and Europeans too.
  - aplummer 8y ago
    Ah that would be illegal. The NSA asks Australia to spy on Americans and report back and visa versa. Which is not against the spirit of the law at all /s.
    - wpdev_63 8y ago
      Just so people out of the loop understand: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-deal-surveillance-personal-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-d... The british government actually encouraged and even paid 100 million dollars for the nsa(cia) to spy on their citizens. While china's surveillance system is scary because it's in public, what might actually be more dangerous is the massive surveillance campaigns the US is carrying out. The US is more than happy to provide surveillance to all 5 eye countries.
  - mattigames 8y ago
    What? No, not weird at all, the spying on Americans is in behalf of America, e.g. the NSA never gonna help with intel about how to attack America itself but they do so for enemy countries, or maybe just report about it for allies territories -in case allies stop being so in the near future-
    - 8y ago
chrisco255 8y ago
I openly wonder and worry if China will ever reach a point where it has the influence to extend its social credit system beyond its borders? Imagine you can't do business with China unless you agree to be spied on and data collected? Perhaps if you've ever criticized China you suffer further consequences?
- aplummer 8y ago
  There is an interesting battle going on right now with airlines and hotels that list Taiwan as a country. I can see them extending their worldview when they have leverage first. Don't recognise the spratly islands as china on a map at immigration? Turn around.
- s4vi0r 8y ago
  You mean in a manner similar to the united states at the moment? :^) China has some serious issues, but people acting like this is out of the norm is ridiculous. The US is afraid of Chinas rising influence/power and these sorts of articles attacking it are a common tactic. Like, great - there's no explicit social credit system in the US on an app where you're barred from leaving the country because of who you're friends with. Instead, there's an implicit one where the NSA gets to spy on all your shit (similar to what happens in China), where you're arbitrarily put on a watch list or no-fly list (similar to China), and depending on your ethnicity and/or family you may get unjustly targeted by the state with no real way of defending yourself (again, similar to China). I'd almost prefer it be done the Chinese way, because at least then the problem is obvious. As it is in the states, like half the country can't even fucking agree that maybe there might be a problem with women & minority rights, immigration, police brutality, etc.
  - 131012 8y ago
    At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. On the other hand, I still agree that the phenomenon of rating people based on data is something that happens in the West too. Whenever you buy insurance, be assured that your whole life is scanned before you get a price.
LiterallyDoge 8y ago
Does this extend to devices made by Huawei? Wasn't Google using them as a manufacturer for their phones?
- MentallyRetired 8y ago
  As someone who wants a Matebook X Pro, I have this same question.
- Mikeb85 8y ago
  Google devices are now produced by HTC as they bought their smartphone division. In the past, LG, Samsung, HTC and Huawei all produced Google (Nexus/Pixel) phones.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    Google bought HTCs smartphone design team (finalized earlier his year), but as far as I've seen there is no reported exclusive manufacturing arrangement tied to that.
    - Mikeb85 8y ago
      Gotcha. In that case probably just built by Foxconn like everything else.
SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
A pity. If you're looking for a 8-inch android tablet then the Huawei is a good offer - reasonable price, recent OS version, usb-c connector. I don't know of another to match it.
- icebraining 8y ago
  This is about ISP equipment (routers and such), not consumer stuff.
  - stevewodil 8y ago
    For now...
  - SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
    You can get the aforementioned Huawei 8-inch tablet in Europe. You can't in the USA. So there does seem to be an impact on Huawei consumer stuff.
AndyMcConachie 8y ago
One has to wonder how much the lobbying arms of US telecom equipment manufacturers have a say in this decision. Companies like Cisco and Juniper must be loving this news. They effectively no longer have to compete with Huawei in numerous markets.
- krona 8y ago
  In the UK, Cyber Security Evaluation Centre (HCSEC) Oversight Board exists solely to oversee Huawei’s activities in the UK. You can read the latest report: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/727415/20180717_HCSEC_Oversight_Board_Report_2018_-_FINAL.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Huawei’s processes continue to fall short of industry good practice and make it difficult to provide long term assurance. The lack of progress in remediating these is disappointing. NCSC and Huawei are working with the network operators to develop a long-term solution, regarding the lack of lifecycle management around third party components, a new strategic risk to the UK telecommunications networks. Significant work will be required to remediate this issue and provide interim risk management.
zimablue 8y ago
All the 10,000 arguments about "the US does this". Yeah but the US is a democracy, and criticize it all you like but that means something. It means that Trump is there because the average American (accounting for the broken electoral college, voter suppression etc) wanted him to be. And that there are real limits on his power, and a term limit. Feels like the critics of western democracies who rightfully want to improve them have forgotten that there is a worse level and a distinction between a capitalistic system that is very rigged and one in which the average guy has absolutely no power and no recourse to injustice. Random NSA people knowing stuff they shouldn't isn't the same as 1984 on machine-learning steroids tracking your every thought.
- crazy_monkey 8y ago
  Yes, a democracy, where half the people and the leader chants "America First"... How does this differ from how other non-democratic countries again?
- vidarh 8y ago
  That makes a big difference if you're an American citizen, in America. Outside its own territory, the US has a long history of being far more aggressive than China, so for someone who is outside both the US and China, it's not at all a given that it's better being spied on by the US than China.
  - zimablue 8y ago
    Aggressive than China with countries or individuals? Which country would you feel safer taking a vacation in, having insulted the premier in a viral tweet?
    - bloak 8y ago
      Hard to say, but if you have no interest in visiting either, so it's renditions and extraditions that you have to worry about, then ...
    - mtrovo 8y ago
Mikeb85 8y ago
So basically strongarming everyone into using hardware that the US government has a backdoor into. Not going to lie, simply based on historical US international interventions, I'd rather be spyed on by the Chinese. They're less likely to start a war or overthrow governments.
- zimablue 8y ago
  Really? Do you think the US government would use your information in a more or less restricted way than the Chinese? Would your answer change if you were: a) a citizen of the US, b) a citizen in China, c) a citizen of a country where china has massive influence, d) a citizen of a country where the US has massive influence, e) a citizen of a strongly independent country? Your answer is so baffling to me that I checked whether you're a real person, and you seem to be. I'd be surprised if either China or the US launched a war because of your personal communications so the question seems to come more down to who you trust to abuse the information more/screw you in an unaccountable way.
  - dingaling 8y ago
    Well I live in the UK and am more concerned with Five Eyes monitoring me than China. China might be able to hack my servers or steal from my PayPal account, if they cared. Five Eyes can ruin my life and leave me destitute, or imprisoned. Or just have me SWATted if I am particularly troublesome.
    - zimablue 8y ago
      So that's a fair point, you're more concerned re UK/US because you are citizen/in a controlled country. I think that might be how a lot of people feel, and I agree. But can you see how for the equivalent guy living in someone firmly under China's influence they would be more scared of Chinese surveillance than you are of Five-Eyes? And that it would be further reaching in terms of what sort of actions might lead to repercussions?
  - Mikeb85 8y ago
    Canada. Well, the US is using national security as a reason to urge people to drop Huawei. Meanwhile it's an obvious economic as well as soft power play. In recent years we've had several trade disputes with the US, illegal immigrants pour in to our borders from the US, and US sponsored environmental activists have disrupted many of our natural resource industries. So can't say I'm too keen on the US attempting to restrict our trade with China who, for all their faults, haven't been a bad partner.
notlisted 8y ago
Hmmmm, protectionism much? Apple recently issued forecast warnings due to weakened demand. Meanwhile HuaWei is killing it [1] This nonsense has been going on for a while. It's also happening in banking [huge fines for foreign banks], in car manufacturing [diesel scandal, airbag recall] etc. etc. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/01/technology/huawei-apple-iphone-samsung/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/01/technology/huawei-apple-iph...
lostgame 8y ago
Can I ask, who exactly is an ally of the USA at this point? Up here in Canada, and from talking to my friends in the UK, nobody is a fan of that country, for reasons like: - It's corrupt-at-best[1], ignorant[2], contradictory[3] and racist[4]-at-best leadership, not to mention the fact that the general populace was ignorant enough to vote for that leadership, even if the popular vote[7] showed someone else won, the corrupt voting system of the states, which allows anyone to be bribed, essentially, means that this turd keeps his office. - It's constant placement of self-importance above all other countries ('America is the greatest country in the world!'), - Its tendency for meaningless war[5] - to the point where it actually made an attack on it's own country in the form of 9/11, something (I will pull up the source for this to validate) the majority of people outside the USA know/believe to be true. - The consistent denial of climate change, and the instance on making it worse - check out the climate change report the US govt. cleverly hid by releasing on Black Friday, for example.[6] Are there any other countries who, right now, especially under Trump's 'leadership', actually think the USA is OK? The fact that I've been able to pull up 5 sources confirming these things is...disturbing at best. No offence to anyone who lives in the states, I'm just expressing what I've seen the rest of the world express, and backing it up with references, so I don't get a slew of downvotes. I imagine my opinion won't be popular to those who live there, but it is quite a real thing, especially the climate change stuff. That's just awful. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administration-corruption-conflicts.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administrat... [2] https://www.vox.com/2018/10/14/17975644/trump-60-minutes-interview-transcript https://www.vox.com/2018/10/14/17975644/trump-60-minutes-int... [3] https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/donald-trump-2016-contradictions-213869 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/donald-trump... [4] https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/media/nbc-trump-immigration-ad/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/media/nbc-trump-immigration-a... [5] https://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-us-militarys-strength-being-wasted-pointless-wars-21826 https://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-us-militarys-streng... [6] https://globalnews.ca/news/4695268/al-gore-trump-climate-change-report-black-friday/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4695268/al-gore-trump-climate-cha... [7] https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/21/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote-final-count/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/21/politics/donald-trump-hillary...
- richliss 8y ago

85 points by LinuxBender 8y ago

Makes sense. The NSA can't backdoor the kit if China already have, right? I understand it's oft more nuanced than this, but the comment about glass houses comes to mind.

z2 8y ago
I wonder if the financial incentives (i.e. bribes) to avoid China also stipulate buying Cisco or Motorola. If not, I wonder if this will backfire and create a great opportunity for Fujitsu/Ericsson/Nokia to advertise their relative safety and independence.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
Is it hard to imagine that this is truly 100% backdoored by China's secret services? Nope. Avoiding it is the smart thing to do. Yes, NSA will try to do the same but China will also ask it's citizens to avoid known NSA backdoored devices.
toyg 8y ago
Yes, they are all bad, but at some point you will have to choose the lesser evil.
- Merem 8y ago
  What is the "lesser evil" though? It highly depends on how you perceive things and issues.
  - friedman23 8y ago
    The lesser evil is the non American or Chinese alternatives. Namely Nokia and Ericsson.
microcolonel 8y ago
I do not think that the PLA will treat you as well as the NSA. If you are compromised by the PLA in America, you are a threat to national security. If you are compromised by NSA in America, you're likely of little interest. I, for one, would rather be a CIA, NSA, or CSIS puppet than a PLA one; because at least in the U.S. and Canada I and my countrymen have some concept of human rights.
friedman23 8y ago
Yes, because the CCP deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to state sponsored spying.
unethical_ban 8y ago
It feels like the NSA has the slightest bit of shame compared to China, culturally, about spying and how it's used. I don't like it, I fight it, and I support the EFF, but I still think the US is unequivocally better than the Chinese government. And why aren't there other sources of the highest tech networking gear? As someone said, what about the Japanese or the Swedes with their telecom? Or even open source hardware... it will be years before there is FOSS hardware for ISP routing, but oh well.

JCSato 8y ago

Other coverage that made it to the top of HN a few days ago: US asks allies to drop Huawei - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18513249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18513249

pteredactyl 8y ago

What about ZTE?

durpleDrank 8y ago

I don't want to be that guy but as scary and threatening as this all sounds if you just flip the script you can gain some empathy for citizens of every country the NSA spied on. For once, Americans and Europeans are starting to fear the same "invasion" that the rest of the world has been feeling for a while now. I just hope my countries team wins I guess?

dtwest 8y ago
That's kind of a weird point to make since the NSA spies on Americans and Europeans too.
- aplummer 8y ago
  Ah that would be illegal. The NSA asks Australia to spy on Americans and report back and visa versa. Which is not against the spirit of the law at all /s.
  - wpdev_63 8y ago
    Just so people out of the loop understand: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-deal-surveillance-personal-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-d... The british government actually encouraged and even paid 100 million dollars for the nsa(cia) to spy on their citizens. While china's surveillance system is scary because it's in public, what might actually be more dangerous is the massive surveillance campaigns the US is carrying out. The US is more than happy to provide surveillance to all 5 eye countries.
- mattigames 8y ago
  What? No, not weird at all, the spying on Americans is in behalf of America, e.g. the NSA never gonna help with intel about how to attack America itself but they do so for enemy countries, or maybe just report about it for allies territories -in case allies stop being so in the near future-
  - 8y ago

chrisco255 8y ago

I openly wonder and worry if China will ever reach a point where it has the influence to extend its social credit system beyond its borders? Imagine you can't do business with China unless you agree to be spied on and data collected? Perhaps if you've ever criticized China you suffer further consequences?

aplummer 8y ago
There is an interesting battle going on right now with airlines and hotels that list Taiwan as a country. I can see them extending their worldview when they have leverage first. Don't recognise the spratly islands as china on a map at immigration? Turn around.
s4vi0r 8y ago
You mean in a manner similar to the united states at the moment? :^) China has some serious issues, but people acting like this is out of the norm is ridiculous. The US is afraid of Chinas rising influence/power and these sorts of articles attacking it are a common tactic. Like, great - there's no explicit social credit system in the US on an app where you're barred from leaving the country because of who you're friends with. Instead, there's an implicit one where the NSA gets to spy on all your shit (similar to what happens in China), where you're arbitrarily put on a watch list or no-fly list (similar to China), and depending on your ethnicity and/or family you may get unjustly targeted by the state with no real way of defending yourself (again, similar to China). I'd almost prefer it be done the Chinese way, because at least then the problem is obvious. As it is in the states, like half the country can't even fucking agree that maybe there might be a problem with women & minority rights, immigration, police brutality, etc.
- 131012 8y ago
  At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. On the other hand, I still agree that the phenomenon of rating people based on data is something that happens in the West too. Whenever you buy insurance, be assured that your whole life is scanned before you get a price.

LiterallyDoge 8y ago

Does this extend to devices made by Huawei? Wasn't Google using them as a manufacturer for their phones?

MentallyRetired 8y ago
As someone who wants a Matebook X Pro, I have this same question.
Mikeb85 8y ago
Google devices are now produced by HTC as they bought their smartphone division. In the past, LG, Samsung, HTC and Huawei all produced Google (Nexus/Pixel) phones.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  Google bought HTCs smartphone design team (finalized earlier his year), but as far as I've seen there is no reported exclusive manufacturing arrangement tied to that.
  - Mikeb85 8y ago
    Gotcha. In that case probably just built by Foxconn like everything else.

SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago

A pity. If you're looking for a 8-inch android tablet then the Huawei is a good offer - reasonable price, recent OS version, usb-c connector. I don't know of another to match it.

icebraining 8y ago
This is about ISP equipment (routers and such), not consumer stuff.
- stevewodil 8y ago
  For now...
- SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
  You can get the aforementioned Huawei 8-inch tablet in Europe. You can't in the USA. So there does seem to be an impact on Huawei consumer stuff.

AndyMcConachie 8y ago

One has to wonder how much the lobbying arms of US telecom equipment manufacturers have a say in this decision. Companies like Cisco and Juniper must be loving this news. They effectively no longer have to compete with Huawei in numerous markets.

krona 8y ago
In the UK, Cyber Security Evaluation Centre (HCSEC) Oversight Board exists solely to oversee Huawei’s activities in the UK. You can read the latest report: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/727415/20180717_HCSEC_Oversight_Board_Report_2018_-_FINAL.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Huawei’s processes continue to fall short of industry good practice and make it difficult to provide long term assurance. The lack of progress in remediating these is disappointing. NCSC and Huawei are working with the network operators to develop a long-term solution, regarding the lack of lifecycle management around third party components, a new strategic risk to the UK telecommunications networks. Significant work will be required to remediate this issue and provide interim risk management.

zimablue 8y ago

All the 10,000 arguments about "the US does this". Yeah but the US is a democracy, and criticize it all you like but that means something. It means that Trump is there because the average American (accounting for the broken electoral college, voter suppression etc) wanted him to be. And that there are real limits on his power, and a term limit. Feels like the critics of western democracies who rightfully want to improve them have forgotten that there is a worse level and a distinction between a capitalistic system that is very rigged and one in which the average guy has absolutely no power and no recourse to injustice. Random NSA people knowing stuff they shouldn't isn't the same as 1984 on machine-learning steroids tracking your every thought.

crazy_monkey 8y ago
Yes, a democracy, where half the people and the leader chants "America First"... How does this differ from how other non-democratic countries again?
vidarh 8y ago
That makes a big difference if you're an American citizen, in America. Outside its own territory, the US has a long history of being far more aggressive than China, so for someone who is outside both the US and China, it's not at all a given that it's better being spied on by the US than China.
- zimablue 8y ago
  Aggressive than China with countries or individuals? Which country would you feel safer taking a vacation in, having insulted the premier in a viral tweet?
  - bloak 8y ago
    Hard to say, but if you have no interest in visiting either, so it's renditions and extraditions that you have to worry about, then ...
  - mtrovo 8y ago

Mikeb85 8y ago

So basically strongarming everyone into using hardware that the US government has a backdoor into. Not going to lie, simply based on historical US international interventions, I'd rather be spyed on by the Chinese. They're less likely to start a war or overthrow governments.

zimablue 8y ago
Really? Do you think the US government would use your information in a more or less restricted way than the Chinese? Would your answer change if you were: a) a citizen of the US, b) a citizen in China, c) a citizen of a country where china has massive influence, d) a citizen of a country where the US has massive influence, e) a citizen of a strongly independent country? Your answer is so baffling to me that I checked whether you're a real person, and you seem to be. I'd be surprised if either China or the US launched a war because of your personal communications so the question seems to come more down to who you trust to abuse the information more/screw you in an unaccountable way.
- dingaling 8y ago
  Well I live in the UK and am more concerned with Five Eyes monitoring me than China. China might be able to hack my servers or steal from my PayPal account, if they cared. Five Eyes can ruin my life and leave me destitute, or imprisoned. Or just have me SWATted if I am particularly troublesome.
  - zimablue 8y ago
    So that's a fair point, you're more concerned re UK/US because you are citizen/in a controlled country. I think that might be how a lot of people feel, and I agree. But can you see how for the equivalent guy living in someone firmly under China's influence they would be more scared of Chinese surveillance than you are of Five-Eyes? And that it would be further reaching in terms of what sort of actions might lead to repercussions?
- Mikeb85 8y ago
  Canada. Well, the US is using national security as a reason to urge people to drop Huawei. Meanwhile it's an obvious economic as well as soft power play. In recent years we've had several trade disputes with the US, illegal immigrants pour in to our borders from the US, and US sponsored environmental activists have disrupted many of our natural resource industries. So can't say I'm too keen on the US attempting to restrict our trade with China who, for all their faults, haven't been a bad partner.

notlisted 8y ago

Hmmmm, protectionism much? Apple recently issued forecast warnings due to weakened demand. Meanwhile HuaWei is killing it [1] This nonsense has been going on for a while. It's also happening in banking [huge fines for foreign banks], in car manufacturing [diesel scandal, airbag recall] etc. etc. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/01/technology/huawei-apple-iphone-samsung/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/01/technology/huawei-apple-iph...

lostgame 8y ago

Can I ask, who exactly is an ally of the USA at this point? Up here in Canada, and from talking to my friends in the UK, nobody is a fan of that country, for reasons like: - It's corrupt-at-best[1], ignorant[2], contradictory[3] and racist[4]-at-best leadership, not to mention the fact that the general populace was ignorant enough to vote for that leadership, even if the popular vote[7] showed someone else won, the corrupt voting system of the states, which allows anyone to be bribed, essentially, means that this turd keeps his office. - It's constant placement of self-importance above all other countries ('America is the greatest country in the world!'), - Its tendency for meaningless war[5] - to the point where it actually made an attack on it's own country in the form of 9/11, something (I will pull up the source for this to validate) the majority of people outside the USA know/believe to be true. - The consistent denial of climate change, and the instance on making it worse - check out the climate change report the US govt. cleverly hid by releasing on Black Friday, for example.[6] Are there any other countries who, right now, especially under Trump's 'leadership', actually think the USA is OK? The fact that I've been able to pull up 5 sources confirming these things is...disturbing at best. No offence to anyone who lives in the states, I'm just expressing what I've seen the rest of the world express, and backing it up with references, so I don't get a slew of downvotes. I imagine my opinion won't be popular to those who live there, but it is quite a real thing, especially the climate change stuff. That's just awful. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administration-corruption-conflicts.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administrat... [2] https://www.vox.com/2018/10/14/17975644/trump-60-minutes-interview-transcript https://www.vox.com/2018/10/14/17975644/trump-60-minutes-int... [3] https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/donald-trump-2016-contradictions-213869 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/donald-trump... [4] https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/media/nbc-trump-immigration-ad/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/media/nbc-trump-immigration-a... [5] https://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-us-militarys-strength-being-wasted-pointless-wars-21826 https://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-us-militarys-streng... [6] https://globalnews.ca/news/4695268/al-gore-trump-climate-change-report-black-friday/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4695268/al-gore-trump-climate-cha... [7] https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/21/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote-final-count/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/21/politics/donald-trump-hillary...

richliss 8y ago