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You know - if you don't believe you can build a good enough application with these tools such that users will feel motivated to spend 30 seconds installing a ne

You know - if you don't believe you can build a good enough application with these tools such that users will feel motivated to spend 30 seconds installing a new browser... then how on earth do you motivate yourself to learn these tools? I don't understand this attitude in web development that panders to this contradictory sentiment. It's like saying - yeah, really we believe all web applications are actually worthless and people only use them while they represent the path of absolute least resistance. Maybe this sentiment is true. But then, how does any web developer convince themselves they are creating anything of value? Surely if you're going to spend all this time on this stuff, then you HAVE to believe that you are creating something of value. And if you do believe this, then surely you believe that people would be willing to spend 30 seconds of investment upgrading their browser.

andrewf 16y ago
You are assuming that users: (a) know what a web browser is (b) know that it can be upgraded, and how (c) aren't prevented from upgrading due to school/workplace/etc (d) realise the benefits that come with using something newer than IE6 (e) given all the above, decide that your app and others like it aren't worth the install At least one of (a) through (d) is false for many users.
- grovulent 16y ago
  You're assuming that users: a) Haven't heard sufficient word of mouth buzz about the application such that they question why it performs so poorly for them. b) That this word of mouth doesn't cause them to seek out the source of the problem - i.e. the old age of their browser. c) that they don't look forward to using a platform that allows them to enjoy the application when they are blocked from upgrading at work/school etc, d) that it is not possible to infer the increased value of upgrading from observing the experiences of those who have, and e) given all of the above, still decide that your app is of no value to them. That is to say, if you assume a) through d) then you assume your app is of little value and you shouldn't be building it.
  - Alexx 16y ago
    I think you're hugely over estimating the competence of a large percentage of internet users.
  - andrewf 16y ago
    I'm definitely assuming (a). I think we have different user stereotypes in mind. I think that lots of people spend little to no time hearing about, or talking about, applications they aren't using already. These are the kinds of people that go to mint.com not because they've heard about it, and are excited about it, but because they typed "track my finances" into Google and it was the first result.
    - grovulent 16y ago
      Well I don't disagree that in one sense you're making your life harder for yourself by adopting a platform that has a smaller install base... But I do want to challenge the idea that you're necessarily making the right decision by trying to appeal to the widest possible install base. It might just be that this is more harmful than is commonly accepted.
  - mthoms 16y ago
    >That is to say, if you assume a) through d) then you assume your app is of little value and you shouldn't be building it. Or, you feel your app is so valuable that it is worth the time and effort making it capable of reaching the widest possible audience. It really depends on the target demographic of your app (technical vs non-technical users).
skybrian 16y ago
In most cases, the signaling works the opposite way. If the authors of a website can't be bothered to make it work well in current browsers (which shouldn't be that hard, just don't do anything fancy), people assume either that they're amateurs or they're targeting a specialized audience, most likely the former. Requiring a specific browser is a form of playing hard-to-get. That's also a form of signaling, but it doesn't work by itself. You need some other way of convincing people that it's worth jumping the hurdle.

andrewf 16y ago

You are assuming that users: (a) know what a web browser is (b) know that it can be upgraded, and how (c) aren't prevented from upgrading due to school/workplace/etc (d) realise the benefits that come with using something newer than IE6 (e) given all the above, decide that your app and others like it aren't worth the install At least one of (a) through (d) is false for many users.

grovulent 16y ago
You're assuming that users: a) Haven't heard sufficient word of mouth buzz about the application such that they question why it performs so poorly for them. b) That this word of mouth doesn't cause them to seek out the source of the problem - i.e. the old age of their browser. c) that they don't look forward to using a platform that allows them to enjoy the application when they are blocked from upgrading at work/school etc, d) that it is not possible to infer the increased value of upgrading from observing the experiences of those who have, and e) given all of the above, still decide that your app is of no value to them. That is to say, if you assume a) through d) then you assume your app is of little value and you shouldn't be building it.
- Alexx 16y ago
  I think you're hugely over estimating the competence of a large percentage of internet users.
- andrewf 16y ago
  I'm definitely assuming (a). I think we have different user stereotypes in mind. I think that lots of people spend little to no time hearing about, or talking about, applications they aren't using already. These are the kinds of people that go to mint.com not because they've heard about it, and are excited about it, but because they typed "track my finances" into Google and it was the first result.
  - grovulent 16y ago
    Well I don't disagree that in one sense you're making your life harder for yourself by adopting a platform that has a smaller install base... But I do want to challenge the idea that you're necessarily making the right decision by trying to appeal to the widest possible install base. It might just be that this is more harmful than is commonly accepted.
- mthoms 16y ago
  >That is to say, if you assume a) through d) then you assume your app is of little value and you shouldn't be building it. Or, you feel your app is so valuable that it is worth the time and effort making it capable of reaching the widest possible audience. It really depends on the target demographic of your app (technical vs non-technical users).

skybrian 16y ago

In most cases, the signaling works the opposite way. If the authors of a website can't be bothered to make it work well in current browsers (which shouldn't be that hard, just don't do anything fancy), people assume either that they're amateurs or they're targeting a specialized audience, most likely the former. Requiring a specific browser is a form of playing hard-to-get. That's also a form of signaling, but it doesn't work by itself. You need some other way of convincing people that it's worth jumping the hurdle.