9 ms·

East German secret police guide for identifying youth subcultures (1985)

246 points by ilamont 8y ago

modzu 8y ago
"goths: a ludicrous satanic deathcult who like the cure" made me laugh out loud
lostgame 8y ago
Would love a translation for this, if possible. Looks humorous for sure.
peisistratos 8y ago
Sounds like the same kind of guides that were being printed in the West https://twitter.com/TurnerMarko/status/1066830331288973314 https://twitter.com/TurnerMarko/status/1066830331288973314
- detaro 8y ago
  Although I'm sure there was a lot of judge-y material about sub-cultures in the west too, that one is not a good example at least. I don't think a short, neutral guide to (edit: mostly) looks is "the same kind" as a police state's guide to "negative-decadent" youths that also goes into to who behaves the least "appropriate for society", political ideas and suspect affiliations.
  - peisistratos 8y ago
    > negative-decadent" youths that also goes into to who behaves the least "appropriate for society", political ideas and suspect affiliations. From the (Western) guide: Skinheads: Enjoy fighting Rude Boys: Are enthusiastic vandals Punks: Out to shock through their appearance and behavior, have anarchist leanings Roots Boys: anti-police
    - CamouflagedKiwi 8y ago
      As much as it's tempting to equate the Mirror to communist governments like East Germany, an article posted at least slightly tongue-in-cheek in a British newspaper is not the same thing as a guide provided to police in a police state.
      - microtherion 8y ago
        Secret police records in former East Germany are subject to an unusual degree of transparency, because many of them were seized and subsequently made public after the wall fell. We don't really know what the archives of western states would show if subjected to comparable scrutiny (to the limited extent those archives were made available, e.g. in Switzerland, they show an appalling amount of surveillance, though a comparatively limited amount and degree of repression).
        sverige 8y ago
        Imagine what we'd discover if we could see the secret archives of Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Twitter.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    The terms "police state" and "decadent" in the US are only used to describe other countries. The sentiments carry over, they're just called "law and order" and "losers" here.
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      I can't recall hearing an American call another country decadent, at least not unironically. It's strongly associated with Communist countries or leftists criticizing the US, it seems to me. The term "police state" isn't as strongly associated with critics of the US, but I would say the majority of the time it is directed at the US.
    - pvg 8y ago
      Suggesting that the US has become a decadent, past-its-prime empire or that it is turning into a police state are pretty standard-issue critiques and have been for many decades. You can regularly find them on HN, too.
      - rhizome 8y ago
        The specific term "decadent" is tarred in the US by its Marxist associations and it's use by Nazis in their Entartete Kunst critique. You're right, the sentiment persists, but with different words, which was my point.
l0b0 8y ago
An English translation would be interesting - all the jargon and abbreviations makes this hard to read.
- cf498 8y ago
  There is really not much to read. The title is as bad/good as it gets. Overview of appearances of "negatively decadent" youth in the GDR. Skin heads are rowdies prone to be fascists, Metal heads are violent and punks are dirty junk people who smell bad and are anarchists. Also, Teds, Tramper, Grufties and popper are not interested in politics.
  - ImaCake 8y ago
    I did like how "grufties" are labelled as fans of "The Cure", but also death cults.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
      Plug "Gruftie" into google translate, German to English, and you get "Goth". "Fans of The Cure and death" is close enough. As I found out at the museum of communism on Leipzig, "Gruftie" means something like "graveyard creature", "crypt kid", etc. In other words, slang term for a Gothic.
  - microtherion 8y ago
    One amusing detail is how Metal heads are described as having basically "society-conforming attitudes". Judging from my own circle of acquaintances, I think the secret police assessment is quite accurate there.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      It pretty much is. "Study of 80s metalheads finds that they turn out to be better adjusted than those who listened to other music" https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/08/metal-fans-turn-out-to-be-happier-than-everyone-else https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/08/metal-fans-tur... Outside of some darker corners of the genre, most Heavy Metal listeners just like fun, some sex, some drinks, and some noise. They aren't even that big on drugs. And they're quite communal as a scene. Whereas other genres attract more self-destruction, isolation, and negativity.
jlg23 8y ago
The only thing interesting to translate is the title "Overview of appearances of negative-decadent adolescents in the GDR". Of note is that several entries refer to connections to the church[es] (esp youth work of those) - it makes perfect sense when one understands that christian churches (mostly protestants in the GDR, afaik) were seen by many parents as a more liberal alternative to state sponsored youth groups (liberal as in "not preaching communism non-stop").
- cf498 8y ago
  To be clear, the term protestant is something different in Germany then in the US. The is also no "the churches" in a broader sense. There is the catholic church and the evangelical church in Germany, who are protestants by name and broadly lutherans. And thats it, only those two. Both had people involved in the GDR civil rights movement, one of the recent German presidents, Joachim Gauck was an Lutheran/Protestant pastor and an anti communist civil rights activists, who wrote the preamble of the German version of the black book of communism. He compared the UDSSR to the Hitler regime. I would be careful to call that "liberal". It was mostly conservative and has been so after the reunification. The role of the two churches is an extremely difficult subject throughout the last century and I dont think broad generalizations help anyone here.
  - natechols 8y ago
    "Liberal" and "conservative" also have very different meanings depending on country and context, and I don't see how opposition to the Stasi or GDR government automatically makes someone a conservative. Gauck was supported by the Social Democrats and the Greens, both of which are very progressive (well to the left of US democrats).
    - cf498 8y ago
      > I don't see how opposition to the Stasi or GDR government automatically makes someone a conservative. His opposition didnt make him a conservative or a liberal. He just is a conservative.
Tomte 8y ago
Fascinating! Even back then people confused apostrophes with French accent marks. It's no new occurrence. Survey of appearances of negative-decadent youths in the GDR From the left: * Ted's Age: 15-30 years Very small group by numbers, fanatic supporters of 50's Rock'n'Roll. Usually organized in respective fan clubs. Clothing in 50's style: Skinny jeans, Winklepickers. Hair in the style of R&R-times (Elvis quiffe, "Duck"). Politically uninterested. Hardly noticed operationally, activities mostly at birth and death days of idolized rock stars. * Tramper (bum, blueser) Age: 20-30 years. Classic manifestation of the negative-decadent youth in the 70's. Blues fans. Participation in traditional events. Long hair, jeans parka, tramping, Birkenstock (literally: "jesus slippers"), beards, sometimes fashin accessories similar to Hippies. Not bound to any political worldview. Noticed through organizing inter-regional meetings, no firm attachment to church groups, hardly growing. * Skins Age: 15-22 years. English: "head skin". society-threatening manifestation of negative-decadent youths as lone wolfs or in loose groups without firm structures. Outer attributes: baldness or very short hair, bomber jacket, skinny jeans, high steel-toe boots studded with nails and iron. Deprecative negative to hostile political attitude, partly neo-fascist tendencies, glorification and use of violence, brutal action. In danger of criminality (rowdyism, battery, resistance to state action. Partly in open church youth groups. * Heavys Age: 15-25 years. Fan of the so-called Heavy-Meta music (extremely hard rock). Similarity to rockers in the west: black leather clothing, leather cap, Rivet-studded jackets and pants, wearing heavy chains etc., normal to semi-long hair. Originally deprecative attitude towards state and society, growing integration into organizations forms og the Free German Youth with society-conforming attitudes. Originally aggressive attitude, partly neo-fascist tendencies after the example of the west, with the proliferation of Heavy music increasingly society-conforming. * Goths Age: 15-20 years. New Heavy scene, originating in hostility to that, glorofication of creepy effects, satanic and death cult, fans of the group "The Cure". black or white dyed hair, sticking out in all directions. White powdered face, black clothing. Wearing of symbols like crucifixes upside down. Totally uninterested in politics and society. Hardly noticed operationally. High profile by collecting grave utensils, sometimes grave desecration. Calm, isolated from other youths. * Punks Age: 15-22 years. English: Garbage/trash. Characterized externally through documented decadence, society-adverse to -threatening. No firm structures. Filthy, torn, paint-sprinkled clothing, utensils like safety pins/razor blades. multi-coloured, scraggy hair, partly "Irokese haircut". Deprecative to hostile political attitude, rejection of all state forms and societal norms. Glorification of anarchist thoughts, "total freedom". Violent appearance, criminal actions and antisocial ways of life, often regulars in public church youth groups, instructed by Deacons. * New Romantics Age: 15-18 years. English: "New romantics", "dropout" movement, developed from punk, is punk's more society-conformant variant. Black or grey clothing, often contrasting black-red as a symbol of anarchy. Hair most of the time dyed black, short at the back and the sides, long on top. Hanging into the face, eyes concealed. Stand for same negative to hostile postitions as Punks,but reject all forms of glorification and use of violence. Partly attached to church youth work, diminishing tendency. * Popper Age: 13-20 years. Performing as break-dancer. Notable one-sided interest in disco and dancing. Youth with extremely modern clothing. Haircut similar to New Romantics, multi-coloured. Totally uninterested in politics. So far no operational appearance. Mostly involved in quarrels with Heavys.
gammateam 8y ago
Subculture affiliation after 30 years old being the biggest sacrilege of them all
- nomel 8y ago
  Maybe I'm taking the definition too literally, > an ethnic, regional, economic, or social group exhibiting characteristic patterns of behavior sufficient to distinguish it from others within an embracing culture But wouldn't your presence here indicate your participation in a type of subculture?
  - gammateam 8y ago
    this is about the age ranges in the police dossier
x220 8y ago
One subculture I got somewhat involved in was the internet cyberpunk-hacker culture, until about a year ago. Communicating through 4chan threads, alt-chans, and IRC channels, these users were always interesting to read from on various topics such as cyberpunk media, politics, current events, hacking, software, fashion, and travel. I'm dismayed that it petered out. I see the cyberpunk form of art and worldview as more useful with each passing year.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  Do you have any theories as to why it petered out? Like you I feel it's more relevant today than ever before but also can't find a growing or healthy community with that mindset anymore.
  - x220 8y ago
    Aside from conspiracy-theorizing about current events (and I don't use that term pejoratively), people tended to discuss the same topics. New cyberpunk media doesn't come out very often, so people tended to talk about the same books, movies, manga, anime, videogames, and fashion. Some of the alt-chans with dedicated cyberpunk boards would run out of ideas to talk about pretty quickly, since there weren't enough posts that the website had to prune old threads like 4chan did. Another hypothesis I have is that cyberpunk media is not as captivating as it used to be since we arguably live in a cyberpunk world. In America there is unimaginable wealth inequality, with some cities having insane costs of rent for cramped apartments, with access to the best technology and medicine in the world but only if you can afford it. We also don't have to use media to imagine a world where digital corporations have a huge amount of power over daily life and the government spies on everyone all the time since both of those things are happening right now. I think we live in a cyberpunk world, it just doesn't have huge buildings, neon lights, and widespread punk fashion. I came in contact with a few guys who wanted to make another alt-chan with a different model (see what other users are typing in real-time, and all posts get deleted early in the morning) but it never materialized as far as I can tell. Edit: do any of you want to join an online cyberpunk community?
    - 8y ago
charlesism 8y ago
If you're interested in this, check out the documentary B-Movie: https://youtu.be/tj3qj6KNcLU https://youtu.be/tj3qj6KNcLU (trailer) It's essentially home movies of an Englishman involved with the 1980s (mainly West-) German music industry.
walshemj 8y ago
Teds in 1980's East Germany - now that's something I would not have expected.

246 points by ilamont 8y ago

modzu 8y ago

"goths: a ludicrous satanic deathcult who like the cure" made me laugh out loud

lostgame 8y ago

Would love a translation for this, if possible. Looks humorous for sure.

peisistratos 8y ago

Sounds like the same kind of guides that were being printed in the West https://twitter.com/TurnerMarko/status/1066830331288973314 https://twitter.com/TurnerMarko/status/1066830331288973314

detaro 8y ago
Although I'm sure there was a lot of judge-y material about sub-cultures in the west too, that one is not a good example at least. I don't think a short, neutral guide to (edit: mostly) looks is "the same kind" as a police state's guide to "negative-decadent" youths that also goes into to who behaves the least "appropriate for society", political ideas and suspect affiliations.
- peisistratos 8y ago
  > negative-decadent" youths that also goes into to who behaves the least "appropriate for society", political ideas and suspect affiliations. From the (Western) guide: Skinheads: Enjoy fighting Rude Boys: Are enthusiastic vandals Punks: Out to shock through their appearance and behavior, have anarchist leanings Roots Boys: anti-police
  - CamouflagedKiwi 8y ago
    As much as it's tempting to equate the Mirror to communist governments like East Germany, an article posted at least slightly tongue-in-cheek in a British newspaper is not the same thing as a guide provided to police in a police state.
    - microtherion 8y ago
      Secret police records in former East Germany are subject to an unusual degree of transparency, because many of them were seized and subsequently made public after the wall fell. We don't really know what the archives of western states would show if subjected to comparable scrutiny (to the limited extent those archives were made available, e.g. in Switzerland, they show an appalling amount of surveillance, though a comparatively limited amount and degree of repression).
      - sverige 8y ago
        Imagine what we'd discover if we could see the secret archives of Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Twitter.
- rhizome 8y ago
  The terms "police state" and "decadent" in the US are only used to describe other countries. The sentiments carry over, they're just called "law and order" and "losers" here.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    I can't recall hearing an American call another country decadent, at least not unironically. It's strongly associated with Communist countries or leftists criticizing the US, it seems to me. The term "police state" isn't as strongly associated with critics of the US, but I would say the majority of the time it is directed at the US.
  - pvg 8y ago
    Suggesting that the US has become a decadent, past-its-prime empire or that it is turning into a police state are pretty standard-issue critiques and have been for many decades. You can regularly find them on HN, too.
    - rhizome 8y ago
      The specific term "decadent" is tarred in the US by its Marxist associations and it's use by Nazis in their Entartete Kunst critique. You're right, the sentiment persists, but with different words, which was my point.

l0b0 8y ago

An English translation would be interesting - all the jargon and abbreviations makes this hard to read.

cf498 8y ago
There is really not much to read. The title is as bad/good as it gets. Overview of appearances of "negatively decadent" youth in the GDR. Skin heads are rowdies prone to be fascists, Metal heads are violent and punks are dirty junk people who smell bad and are anarchists. Also, Teds, Tramper, Grufties and popper are not interested in politics.
- ImaCake 8y ago
  I did like how "grufties" are labelled as fans of "The Cure", but also death cults.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
    Plug "Gruftie" into google translate, German to English, and you get "Goth". "Fans of The Cure and death" is close enough. As I found out at the museum of communism on Leipzig, "Gruftie" means something like "graveyard creature", "crypt kid", etc. In other words, slang term for a Gothic.
- microtherion 8y ago
  One amusing detail is how Metal heads are described as having basically "society-conforming attitudes". Judging from my own circle of acquaintances, I think the secret police assessment is quite accurate there.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    It pretty much is. "Study of 80s metalheads finds that they turn out to be better adjusted than those who listened to other music" https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/08/metal-fans-turn-out-to-be-happier-than-everyone-else https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/08/metal-fans-tur... Outside of some darker corners of the genre, most Heavy Metal listeners just like fun, some sex, some drinks, and some noise. They aren't even that big on drugs. And they're quite communal as a scene. Whereas other genres attract more self-destruction, isolation, and negativity.

jlg23 8y ago

The only thing interesting to translate is the title "Overview of appearances of negative-decadent adolescents in the GDR". Of note is that several entries refer to connections to the church[es] (esp youth work of those) - it makes perfect sense when one understands that christian churches (mostly protestants in the GDR, afaik) were seen by many parents as a more liberal alternative to state sponsored youth groups (liberal as in "not preaching communism non-stop").

cf498 8y ago
To be clear, the term protestant is something different in Germany then in the US. The is also no "the churches" in a broader sense. There is the catholic church and the evangelical church in Germany, who are protestants by name and broadly lutherans. And thats it, only those two. Both had people involved in the GDR civil rights movement, one of the recent German presidents, Joachim Gauck was an Lutheran/Protestant pastor and an anti communist civil rights activists, who wrote the preamble of the German version of the black book of communism. He compared the UDSSR to the Hitler regime. I would be careful to call that "liberal". It was mostly conservative and has been so after the reunification. The role of the two churches is an extremely difficult subject throughout the last century and I dont think broad generalizations help anyone here.
- natechols 8y ago
  "Liberal" and "conservative" also have very different meanings depending on country and context, and I don't see how opposition to the Stasi or GDR government automatically makes someone a conservative. Gauck was supported by the Social Democrats and the Greens, both of which are very progressive (well to the left of US democrats).
  - cf498 8y ago
    > I don't see how opposition to the Stasi or GDR government automatically makes someone a conservative. His opposition didnt make him a conservative or a liberal. He just is a conservative.

Tomte 8y ago

Fascinating! Even back then people confused apostrophes with French accent marks. It's no new occurrence. Survey of appearances of negative-decadent youths in the GDR From the left: * Ted's Age: 15-30 years Very small group by numbers, fanatic supporters of 50's Rock'n'Roll. Usually organized in respective fan clubs. Clothing in 50's style: Skinny jeans, Winklepickers. Hair in the style of R&R-times (Elvis quiffe, "Duck"). Politically uninterested. Hardly noticed operationally, activities mostly at birth and death days of idolized rock stars. * Tramper (bum, blueser) Age: 20-30 years. Classic manifestation of the negative-decadent youth in the 70's. Blues fans. Participation in traditional events. Long hair, jeans parka, tramping, Birkenstock (literally: "jesus slippers"), beards, sometimes fashin accessories similar to Hippies. Not bound to any political worldview. Noticed through organizing inter-regional meetings, no firm attachment to church groups, hardly growing. * Skins Age: 15-22 years. English: "head skin". society-threatening manifestation of negative-decadent youths as lone wolfs or in loose groups without firm structures. Outer attributes: baldness or very short hair, bomber jacket, skinny jeans, high steel-toe boots studded with nails and iron. Deprecative negative to hostile political attitude, partly neo-fascist tendencies, glorification and use of violence, brutal action. In danger of criminality (rowdyism, battery, resistance to state action. Partly in open church youth groups. * Heavys Age: 15-25 years. Fan of the so-called Heavy-Meta music (extremely hard rock). Similarity to rockers in the west: black leather clothing, leather cap, Rivet-studded jackets and pants, wearing heavy chains etc., normal to semi-long hair. Originally deprecative attitude towards state and society, growing integration into organizations forms og the Free German Youth with society-conforming attitudes. Originally aggressive attitude, partly neo-fascist tendencies after the example of the west, with the proliferation of Heavy music increasingly society-conforming. * Goths Age: 15-20 years. New Heavy scene, originating in hostility to that, glorofication of creepy effects, satanic and death cult, fans of the group "The Cure". black or white dyed hair, sticking out in all directions. White powdered face, black clothing. Wearing of symbols like crucifixes upside down. Totally uninterested in politics and society. Hardly noticed operationally. High profile by collecting grave utensils, sometimes grave desecration. Calm, isolated from other youths. * Punks Age: 15-22 years. English: Garbage/trash. Characterized externally through documented decadence, society-adverse to -threatening. No firm structures. Filthy, torn, paint-sprinkled clothing, utensils like safety pins/razor blades. multi-coloured, scraggy hair, partly "Irokese haircut". Deprecative to hostile political attitude, rejection of all state forms and societal norms. Glorification of anarchist thoughts, "total freedom". Violent appearance, criminal actions and antisocial ways of life, often regulars in public church youth groups, instructed by Deacons. * New Romantics Age: 15-18 years. English: "New romantics", "dropout" movement, developed from punk, is punk's more society-conformant variant. Black or grey clothing, often contrasting black-red as a symbol of anarchy. Hair most of the time dyed black, short at the back and the sides, long on top. Hanging into the face, eyes concealed. Stand for same negative to hostile postitions as Punks,but reject all forms of glorification and use of violence. Partly attached to church youth work, diminishing tendency. * Popper Age: 13-20 years. Performing as break-dancer. Notable one-sided interest in disco and dancing. Youth with extremely modern clothing. Haircut similar to New Romantics, multi-coloured. Totally uninterested in politics. So far no operational appearance. Mostly involved in quarrels with Heavys.

gammateam 8y ago

Subculture affiliation after 30 years old being the biggest sacrilege of them all

nomel 8y ago
Maybe I'm taking the definition too literally, > an ethnic, regional, economic, or social group exhibiting characteristic patterns of behavior sufficient to distinguish it from others within an embracing culture But wouldn't your presence here indicate your participation in a type of subculture?
- gammateam 8y ago
  this is about the age ranges in the police dossier

x220 8y ago

One subculture I got somewhat involved in was the internet cyberpunk-hacker culture, until about a year ago. Communicating through 4chan threads, alt-chans, and IRC channels, these users were always interesting to read from on various topics such as cyberpunk media, politics, current events, hacking, software, fashion, and travel. I'm dismayed that it petered out. I see the cyberpunk form of art and worldview as more useful with each passing year.

malvosenior 8y ago
Do you have any theories as to why it petered out? Like you I feel it's more relevant today than ever before but also can't find a growing or healthy community with that mindset anymore.
- x220 8y ago
  Aside from conspiracy-theorizing about current events (and I don't use that term pejoratively), people tended to discuss the same topics. New cyberpunk media doesn't come out very often, so people tended to talk about the same books, movies, manga, anime, videogames, and fashion. Some of the alt-chans with dedicated cyberpunk boards would run out of ideas to talk about pretty quickly, since there weren't enough posts that the website had to prune old threads like 4chan did. Another hypothesis I have is that cyberpunk media is not as captivating as it used to be since we arguably live in a cyberpunk world. In America there is unimaginable wealth inequality, with some cities having insane costs of rent for cramped apartments, with access to the best technology and medicine in the world but only if you can afford it. We also don't have to use media to imagine a world where digital corporations have a huge amount of power over daily life and the government spies on everyone all the time since both of those things are happening right now. I think we live in a cyberpunk world, it just doesn't have huge buildings, neon lights, and widespread punk fashion. I came in contact with a few guys who wanted to make another alt-chan with a different model (see what other users are typing in real-time, and all posts get deleted early in the morning) but it never materialized as far as I can tell. Edit: do any of you want to join an online cyberpunk community?
  - 8y ago

charlesism 8y ago

If you're interested in this, check out the documentary B-Movie: https://youtu.be/tj3qj6KNcLU https://youtu.be/tj3qj6KNcLU (trailer) It's essentially home movies of an Englishman involved with the 1980s (mainly West-) German music industry.

walshemj 8y ago

Teds in 1980's East Germany - now that's something I would not have expected.