6 ms·

Not really blob free then, is it? ;-) Do you get full documentation of the processor internals and board schematics with that kit? How about an owner-control

Not really blob free then, is it? ;-) Do you get full documentation of the processor internals and board schematics with that kit? How about an owner-controlled secure boot, or is that remaining blob vendor-locked / vendor signature controlled? The most pertinent point though is that the POWER9 will run circles around the ARM board in terms of performance, guaranteed. We're using the POWER9 as a full desktop replacement, ARM never really worked out in that role due to general performance issues / lagginess vs. the x86 boxes that were being replaced. A ~2GHz embedded ARM core isn't going to match up to a ~4GHz POWER core, at least not favorably -- you do get what you pay for! EDIT: On further comparison the Blackbird has double the SATA ports, double the SATA speed, two PCIe Gen 4 slots (a x16 and a x8) instead of a single Gen 3 x4, and quadruple the USB 3.0 ports. Really, the Blackbird is in a different class from that ARM system; it's competing against Intel and AMD boards, not against the low end ARM offerings.

floatboth 8y ago
Of course 4GHz and PCIe x16 are very desirable, but $1000 for just the board+CPU bundle is waaaay too much if you just want to play with a non-x86 desktop. With AMD, you can fit a whole build (with an 8-core CPU, RAM, SSD and a good GPU) into $1000. Your mainboard is just ridiculously expensive. Yes, I understand that the volume is low and there was a lot of new R&D and whatnot… but it's still just a big PCB. What costs so much? Is PCIe gen 4 (that I don't need) contributing to the cost a lot?
bec123 8y ago
Really interested to know your use case for power as a desktop cpu ..
- tareqak 8y ago
  I guess situation where you are privacy-conscious enough to inspect all the source code up to and including the CPU microcode? There was post in this thread about FreeBSD being available. If there is a Linux kernel for it, then a distribution might be not too far off e.g. Gentoo (I’m not aware of any POWER9 Linux distribution as off yet).
  - classichasclass 8y ago
    Fedora 28 and up boots directly on the Talos II and should boot on this. I use F28 myself, but the Raptor folks use Debian which I'm told also works well.
  - boudin 8y ago
    There's a PPC handbook for Gentoo: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC Looking around, power9 seems to work fine. For software compatibility it's more a case by case scenario.
  - nicoburns 8y ago
    Looks like Debian supports POWER9 https://wiki.debian.org/PPC64 https://wiki.debian.org/PPC64
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  For one, all x86 malware fails instantly. That's why some people I knew who wouldn't be targeted more specifically were still on PowerPC Macs. Their software was fine for their use case. I have one for experiments from 2003 that ran YouTube fine with a bit of lag a year or two ago. Although I used default, there's even still a browser for it: https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ People who use a lot of terminal apps that don't need a full-on browser or non-portable apps can use it to its fullest. Most importantly besides owner-controlled, the fact that you're getting to use, show off, and develop on a unique system nobody else in your area probably has. Let's not forget the novelty and awing people aspect of tech that might sell some of these.
  - classichasclass 8y ago
    TenFourFox dev here. I certainly agree that security through obscurity (especially on less common architectures) is underestimated in terms of the protection it offers, though it should never be the only security means, of course. However, I think the biggest practical risk to unusual arches is through cross-platform-capable code. If you'll pardon a minor shameless plug, for the security advice I give Power Mac owners using TenFourFox, see https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-security-blanket-blues-revisited-or.html https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-security-blanket... As you'll see from the article, aside from the OS X-specific exploits on Power Macs, components capable of running platform-independent code such as Java, Flash and Office macros are probably where the biggest risk is. And, of course, web browsers. Unfortunately these are some of the most common types of applications for people to run and very few are maintained on Power Macs anymore. The good news with Talos and other P9 systems is that they're now running supported and maintained software and most of the applications people want to use "just work," so that problem goes away.
    - nickpsecurity 8y ago
      Thanks for chiming in! Great work on TenFourFox, too! I was stunned one person or a small team could even do that given how large Firefox is. I know you probably focus on a subset of it but still. "components capable of running platform-independent code such as Java, Flash and Office macros are probably where the biggest risk is." I'll add the risk of those components mostly has to do with their complexity, use of unsafe language, and security not being a concern in design. It's true there's gonna be exploits, esp on legacy systems. The crowd I was talking about was mainly concerned with malware forcing reinstalls, etc. That attackers mostly target high-ROI platforms meant they didnt have that problem any more. Although I suggested Ubuntu, they're Mac people with Mac apps they want to keep. "The good news with Talos and other P9 systems is that they're now running supported and maintained software and most of the applications people want to use "just work," so that problem goes away." Exactly. On top of it, many techniques for mitigating vulnerabilities have a performance cost. Esp overflow checking and microkernels. The extra speed of POWER9's might turn that from unbearable to acceptable. For me, Im fine with being stuck at Core Duo 2 performance for most tasks cuz my now-deadish, 9-yr-old laptop was working fine. If I get same performance but more security/control, that's a net gain. If it's faster, too, then that's even better. Similar argument might apply to those of you that port risky PPC software to it.
- classichasclass 8y ago
  For me, it's a combination of familiarity with Power ISA since the RS/6000 days, a chance to have as trustworthy and auditable machine as possible (no ME/PSP bullcrap), and a desire to support other architectures than the usual ARM or x86 duopoly. Fortunately, you don't have to make very many compromises. Most stuff just works and I'm delighted with the performance of my Talos. Most of all, I'm very confident it's not doing anything or exposing something that would make me vulnerable or insecure because I can audit it myself and the full documentation is included. If people want choice in computing, we need to step up and support these alternatives or we'll reap exactly what we've sown.

floatboth 8y ago

Of course 4GHz and PCIe x16 are very desirable, but $1000 for just the board+CPU bundle is waaaay too much if you just want to play with a non-x86 desktop. With AMD, you can fit a whole build (with an 8-core CPU, RAM, SSD and a good GPU) into $1000. Your mainboard is just ridiculously expensive. Yes, I understand that the volume is low and there was a lot of new R&D and whatnot… but it's still just a big PCB. What costs so much? Is PCIe gen 4 (that I don't need) contributing to the cost a lot?

bec123 8y ago

Really interested to know your use case for power as a desktop cpu ..

tareqak 8y ago
I guess situation where you are privacy-conscious enough to inspect all the source code up to and including the CPU microcode? There was post in this thread about FreeBSD being available. If there is a Linux kernel for it, then a distribution might be not too far off e.g. Gentoo (I’m not aware of any POWER9 Linux distribution as off yet).
- classichasclass 8y ago
  Fedora 28 and up boots directly on the Talos II and should boot on this. I use F28 myself, but the Raptor folks use Debian which I'm told also works well.
- boudin 8y ago
  There's a PPC handbook for Gentoo: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC Looking around, power9 seems to work fine. For software compatibility it's more a case by case scenario.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  Looks like Debian supports POWER9 https://wiki.debian.org/PPC64 https://wiki.debian.org/PPC64
nickpsecurity 8y ago
For one, all x86 malware fails instantly. That's why some people I knew who wouldn't be targeted more specifically were still on PowerPC Macs. Their software was fine for their use case. I have one for experiments from 2003 that ran YouTube fine with a bit of lag a year or two ago. Although I used default, there's even still a browser for it: https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ People who use a lot of terminal apps that don't need a full-on browser or non-portable apps can use it to its fullest. Most importantly besides owner-controlled, the fact that you're getting to use, show off, and develop on a unique system nobody else in your area probably has. Let's not forget the novelty and awing people aspect of tech that might sell some of these.
- classichasclass 8y ago
  TenFourFox dev here. I certainly agree that security through obscurity (especially on less common architectures) is underestimated in terms of the protection it offers, though it should never be the only security means, of course. However, I think the biggest practical risk to unusual arches is through cross-platform-capable code. If you'll pardon a minor shameless plug, for the security advice I give Power Mac owners using TenFourFox, see https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-security-blanket-blues-revisited-or.html https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-security-blanket... As you'll see from the article, aside from the OS X-specific exploits on Power Macs, components capable of running platform-independent code such as Java, Flash and Office macros are probably where the biggest risk is. And, of course, web browsers. Unfortunately these are some of the most common types of applications for people to run and very few are maintained on Power Macs anymore. The good news with Talos and other P9 systems is that they're now running supported and maintained software and most of the applications people want to use "just work," so that problem goes away.
  - nickpsecurity 8y ago
    Thanks for chiming in! Great work on TenFourFox, too! I was stunned one person or a small team could even do that given how large Firefox is. I know you probably focus on a subset of it but still. "components capable of running platform-independent code such as Java, Flash and Office macros are probably where the biggest risk is." I'll add the risk of those components mostly has to do with their complexity, use of unsafe language, and security not being a concern in design. It's true there's gonna be exploits, esp on legacy systems. The crowd I was talking about was mainly concerned with malware forcing reinstalls, etc. That attackers mostly target high-ROI platforms meant they didnt have that problem any more. Although I suggested Ubuntu, they're Mac people with Mac apps they want to keep. "The good news with Talos and other P9 systems is that they're now running supported and maintained software and most of the applications people want to use "just work," so that problem goes away." Exactly. On top of it, many techniques for mitigating vulnerabilities have a performance cost. Esp overflow checking and microkernels. The extra speed of POWER9's might turn that from unbearable to acceptable. For me, Im fine with being stuck at Core Duo 2 performance for most tasks cuz my now-deadish, 9-yr-old laptop was working fine. If I get same performance but more security/control, that's a net gain. If it's faster, too, then that's even better. Similar argument might apply to those of you that port risky PPC software to it.
classichasclass 8y ago
For me, it's a combination of familiarity with Power ISA since the RS/6000 days, a chance to have as trustworthy and auditable machine as possible (no ME/PSP bullcrap), and a desire to support other architectures than the usual ARM or x86 duopoly. Fortunately, you don't have to make very many compromises. Most stuff just works and I'm delighted with the performance of my Talos. Most of all, I'm very confident it's not doing anything or exposing something that would make me vulnerable or insecure because I can audit it myself and the full documentation is included. If people want choice in computing, we need to step up and support these alternatives or we'll reap exactly what we've sown.