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Or a 4-core ITX ARM board with almost[1] 100% open TianoCore UEFI firmware with ACPI and with x86 emulation for VBIOS [2] that allows video output from the EFI

Or a 4-core ITX ARM board with almost[1] 100% open TianoCore UEFI firmware with ACPI and with x86 emulation for VBIOS [2] that allows video output from the EFI framebuffer… with a DIMM included… for a THIRD of the price of the Blackbird: https://www.solid-run.com/marvell-armada-family/macchiatobin/ https://www.solid-run.com/marvell-armada-family/macchiatobin... [1] one 12kb blob: https://github.com/MarvellEmbeddedProcessors/binaries-marvell/blob/binaries-marvell-armada-18.06/mrvl_scp_bl2_mss_ap_cp1_a8040.img https://github.com/MarvellEmbeddedProcessors/binaries-marvel... [2] https://github.com/MarvellEmbeddedProcessors/edk2-open-platform/issues/2#issuecomment-385216950 https://github.com/MarvellEmbeddedProcessors/edk2-open-platf...

tpearson-raptor 8y ago
Not really blob free then, is it? ;-) Do you get full documentation of the processor internals and board schematics with that kit? How about an owner-controlled secure boot, or is that remaining blob vendor-locked / vendor signature controlled? The most pertinent point though is that the POWER9 will run circles around the ARM board in terms of performance, guaranteed. We're using the POWER9 as a full desktop replacement, ARM never really worked out in that role due to general performance issues / lagginess vs. the x86 boxes that were being replaced. A ~2GHz embedded ARM core isn't going to match up to a ~4GHz POWER core, at least not favorably -- you do get what you pay for! EDIT: On further comparison the Blackbird has double the SATA ports, double the SATA speed, two PCIe Gen 4 slots (a x16 and a x8) instead of a single Gen 3 x4, and quadruple the USB 3.0 ports. Really, the Blackbird is in a different class from that ARM system; it's competing against Intel and AMD boards, not against the low end ARM offerings.
- floatboth 8y ago
  Of course 4GHz and PCIe x16 are very desirable, but $1000 for just the board+CPU bundle is waaaay too much if you just want to play with a non-x86 desktop. With AMD, you can fit a whole build (with an 8-core CPU, RAM, SSD and a good GPU) into $1000. Your mainboard is just ridiculously expensive. Yes, I understand that the volume is low and there was a lot of new R&D and whatnot… but it's still just a big PCB. What costs so much? Is PCIe gen 4 (that I don't need) contributing to the cost a lot?
- bec123 8y ago
  Really interested to know your use case for power as a desktop cpu ..
  - tareqak 8y ago
    I guess situation where you are privacy-conscious enough to inspect all the source code up to and including the CPU microcode? There was post in this thread about FreeBSD being available. If there is a Linux kernel for it, then a distribution might be not too far off e.g. Gentoo (I’m not aware of any POWER9 Linux distribution as off yet).
    - classichasclass 8y ago
      Fedora 28 and up boots directly on the Talos II and should boot on this. I use F28 myself, but the Raptor folks use Debian which I'm told also works well.
    - boudin 8y ago
      There's a PPC handbook for Gentoo: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC Looking around, power9 seems to work fine. For software compatibility it's more a case by case scenario.
    - nicoburns 8y ago
      Looks like Debian supports POWER9 https://wiki.debian.org/PPC64 https://wiki.debian.org/PPC64
  - nickpsecurity 8y ago
    For one, all x86 malware fails instantly. That's why some people I knew who wouldn't be targeted more specifically were still on PowerPC Macs. Their software was fine for their use case. I have one for experiments from 2003 that ran YouTube fine with a bit of lag a year or two ago. Although I used default, there's even still a browser for it: https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ People who use a lot of terminal apps that don't need a full-on browser or non-portable apps can use it to its fullest. Most importantly besides owner-controlled, the fact that you're getting to use, show off, and develop on a unique system nobody else in your area probably has. Let's not forget the novelty and awing people aspect of tech that might sell some of these.
philpem 8y ago
Wow, SFP ports. I'm seriously tempted to pick one of these up... the only downside is that it appears information on the CPU (and specifically the TDM interface protocol) is locked behind a Marvell NDA. That'd limit its potential for expansion, though I guess USB is still an option.

tpearson-raptor 8y ago

Not really blob free then, is it? ;-) Do you get full documentation of the processor internals and board schematics with that kit? How about an owner-controlled secure boot, or is that remaining blob vendor-locked / vendor signature controlled? The most pertinent point though is that the POWER9 will run circles around the ARM board in terms of performance, guaranteed. We're using the POWER9 as a full desktop replacement, ARM never really worked out in that role due to general performance issues / lagginess vs. the x86 boxes that were being replaced. A ~2GHz embedded ARM core isn't going to match up to a ~4GHz POWER core, at least not favorably -- you do get what you pay for! EDIT: On further comparison the Blackbird has double the SATA ports, double the SATA speed, two PCIe Gen 4 slots (a x16 and a x8) instead of a single Gen 3 x4, and quadruple the USB 3.0 ports. Really, the Blackbird is in a different class from that ARM system; it's competing against Intel and AMD boards, not against the low end ARM offerings.

floatboth 8y ago
Of course 4GHz and PCIe x16 are very desirable, but $1000 for just the board+CPU bundle is waaaay too much if you just want to play with a non-x86 desktop. With AMD, you can fit a whole build (with an 8-core CPU, RAM, SSD and a good GPU) into $1000. Your mainboard is just ridiculously expensive. Yes, I understand that the volume is low and there was a lot of new R&D and whatnot… but it's still just a big PCB. What costs so much? Is PCIe gen 4 (that I don't need) contributing to the cost a lot?
bec123 8y ago
Really interested to know your use case for power as a desktop cpu ..
- tareqak 8y ago
  I guess situation where you are privacy-conscious enough to inspect all the source code up to and including the CPU microcode? There was post in this thread about FreeBSD being available. If there is a Linux kernel for it, then a distribution might be not too far off e.g. Gentoo (I’m not aware of any POWER9 Linux distribution as off yet).
  - classichasclass 8y ago
    Fedora 28 and up boots directly on the Talos II and should boot on this. I use F28 myself, but the Raptor folks use Debian which I'm told also works well.
  - boudin 8y ago
    There's a PPC handbook for Gentoo: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC Looking around, power9 seems to work fine. For software compatibility it's more a case by case scenario.
  - nicoburns 8y ago
    Looks like Debian supports POWER9 https://wiki.debian.org/PPC64 https://wiki.debian.org/PPC64
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  For one, all x86 malware fails instantly. That's why some people I knew who wouldn't be targeted more specifically were still on PowerPC Macs. Their software was fine for their use case. I have one for experiments from 2003 that ran YouTube fine with a bit of lag a year or two ago. Although I used default, there's even still a browser for it: https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ People who use a lot of terminal apps that don't need a full-on browser or non-portable apps can use it to its fullest. Most importantly besides owner-controlled, the fact that you're getting to use, show off, and develop on a unique system nobody else in your area probably has. Let's not forget the novelty and awing people aspect of tech that might sell some of these.

philpem 8y ago

Wow, SFP ports. I'm seriously tempted to pick one of these up... the only downside is that it appears information on the CPU (and specifically the TDM interface protocol) is locked behind a Marvell NDA. That'd limit its potential for expansion, though I guess USB is still an option.