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You're making an ideological argument for taxation of income and for having government spyware embedded in our financial tools, not a technical argument that GN

You're making an ideological argument for taxation of income and for having government spyware embedded in our financial tools, not a technical argument that GNU Taler is not government spyware. "Spyware" doesn't mean "spying software that I don't like". You liking it and thinking it necessary makes it no less spyware.

cyphar 8y ago
Can you explain, in technical terms, how GNU Taler is literally government spyware? It was not developed by a government, it does precisely what it advertises, does not steal information from users' computers, and is GPLv3+ licensed. It therefore does not fulfill any criteria that a reasonable person would use to define "spyware", let alone "government spyware". If the concern is the government knowing about your transactions (which Taler doesn't allow -- but whatever), then that is an ideological concern not a technical one. I don't know why you think that my liking GNU Taler's principles somehow invalidates that it does not fulfill the definition of "government spyware". I assumed that the objection was ideological, not technical -- because as I've outlined above there is no technical basis on which to base this view (I don't think it's good to strawman people -- I assumed that GP was making the stronger ideological argument rather than the [in my opinion] incorrect technical argument).
- CryptoPunk 8y ago
  I guess it's not spyware, or a backdoor, because it's not secret. It's an overt listening device for the government. The lack of privacy to government surveillance is the important feature that people are trying to convey when they use the term "spyware" to describe it. But we can use a more precise term if you're concerned about the term's connotations with secretive spying. The only world where people would use financial software like this that puts them in such a subordinate position vis-a-vis the government, is one where real financial privacy technology is illegal. Stallman should be upfront about whether such laws are what he would like to see implemented.
  - cyphar 8y ago
    > It's an overt listening device for the government. What do you mean by this? Are we still having a technical discussion? Can you point to the code in GNU Taler which turns on the users' microphone? Obviously I'm being sarcastic here, but you were just complaining about me not discussing the technical argument and now (in the next breath) you're talking about ideological views on government. But in all seriousness, I imagine you're talking about the auditability aspect of GNU Taler. GNU Taler only allows auditing of people receiving money (which is going to be businesses that currently, according to the laws of basically every country on the planet throughout history, have to pay taxes) and not those sending it (which would be you and me). Bitcoin (which I assume you are a proponent of) has a more public transaction history and thus in theory a government could construct more worrying audit systems than they can with GNU Taler. You can use GNU Taler with Bitcoin if you like, it works as an eCash system on top of any underlying payment system (like VISA or Bitcoin). Now, Lightning does help with this problem for most transactions but the general problem of money auditing still exists -- but I am not the one arguing that Bitcoin is an "overt listening device for the government".
    - CryptoPunk 8y ago
      You're being pedantic. You know I'm using the term "listening device" figuratively. I'm explaining why people refer to it as "spyware". There's nothing ideological about that. >>But in all seriousness, I imagine you're talking about the auditability aspect of GNU Taler. GNU Taler only allows auditing of people receiving money So Taler is designed to not provide people with privacy of how much they receive. You can try to justify it as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that its privacy is deliberately handicapped to allow government surveillance. >>Bitcoin (which I assume you are a proponent of) Bitcoin has terrible privacy. There are efforts to provide real privacy in digital/crypto currency. Taler is not one of them. In fact, limiting the financial privacy people have is one of its design goals.

cyphar 8y ago

Can you explain, in technical terms, how GNU Taler is literally government spyware? It was not developed by a government, it does precisely what it advertises, does not steal information from users' computers, and is GPLv3+ licensed. It therefore does not fulfill any criteria that a reasonable person would use to define "spyware", let alone "government spyware". If the concern is the government knowing about your transactions (which Taler doesn't allow -- but whatever), then that is an ideological concern not a technical one. I don't know why you think that my liking GNU Taler's principles somehow invalidates that it does not fulfill the definition of "government spyware". I assumed that the objection was ideological, not technical -- because as I've outlined above there is no technical basis on which to base this view (I don't think it's good to strawman people -- I assumed that GP was making the stronger ideological argument rather than the [in my opinion] incorrect technical argument).

CryptoPunk 8y ago
I guess it's not spyware, or a backdoor, because it's not secret. It's an overt listening device for the government. The lack of privacy to government surveillance is the important feature that people are trying to convey when they use the term "spyware" to describe it. But we can use a more precise term if you're concerned about the term's connotations with secretive spying. The only world where people would use financial software like this that puts them in such a subordinate position vis-a-vis the government, is one where real financial privacy technology is illegal. Stallman should be upfront about whether such laws are what he would like to see implemented.
- cyphar 8y ago
  > It's an overt listening device for the government. What do you mean by this? Are we still having a technical discussion? Can you point to the code in GNU Taler which turns on the users' microphone? Obviously I'm being sarcastic here, but you were just complaining about me not discussing the technical argument and now (in the next breath) you're talking about ideological views on government. But in all seriousness, I imagine you're talking about the auditability aspect of GNU Taler. GNU Taler only allows auditing of people receiving money (which is going to be businesses that currently, according to the laws of basically every country on the planet throughout history, have to pay taxes) and not those sending it (which would be you and me). Bitcoin (which I assume you are a proponent of) has a more public transaction history and thus in theory a government could construct more worrying audit systems than they can with GNU Taler. You can use GNU Taler with Bitcoin if you like, it works as an eCash system on top of any underlying payment system (like VISA or Bitcoin). Now, Lightning does help with this problem for most transactions but the general problem of money auditing still exists -- but I am not the one arguing that Bitcoin is an "overt listening device for the government".
  - CryptoPunk 8y ago
    You're being pedantic. You know I'm using the term "listening device" figuratively. I'm explaining why people refer to it as "spyware". There's nothing ideological about that. >>But in all seriousness, I imagine you're talking about the auditability aspect of GNU Taler. GNU Taler only allows auditing of people receiving money So Taler is designed to not provide people with privacy of how much they receive. You can try to justify it as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that its privacy is deliberately handicapped to allow government surveillance. >>Bitcoin (which I assume you are a proponent of) Bitcoin has terrible privacy. There are efforts to provide real privacy in digital/crypto currency. Taler is not one of them. In fact, limiting the financial privacy people have is one of its design goals.