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> The counter to your argument is that widespread use of existing payment methods means the market prefers them. That's not a valid argument. The market alway

by zorga 8y ago

> The counter to your argument is that widespread use of existing payment methods means the market prefers them. That's not a valid argument. The market always prefers what "is" until a critical mass understands benefits of a new technology. The existing credit system was not designed for today's world, is pull based, and is rife with fraud on both the merchant and the consumer side. Merchants absolutely despise credit cards, we can't wait for something better to be invented. The market preferred horses when cars were first invented; it takes time for new technology to penetrate. Internet cash will be a thing, Bitcoin might not be the successful implementation of that thing, but that thing's time will come. Credit card companies are despised by merchants.

village-idiot 8y ago
Market dominance is absolutely a fair argument for something being preferred by consumers, unless if you’re going to allege fraud or assert that everyone is dumb. It of course doesn’t mean that things will remain this way forever. Credit cards have risen to prominence within living memory, there’s no reason why this has to remain. But it also means that if you expect something to replace credit cards, it must overcome both consumer preference and comfort, as well as all the advantages that the incumbents have. As an aside, we have internet money. They’re called credit cards and debit cards, and we all use them daily to purchase ludicrous amounts of goods and services online and offline. What I have yet to see is an actual explanation for how any proposed “internet money” is superior to my Visa without relying on any ideological claims.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Well, some people prefer it. Many countries have alternative systems that are more used than CCs, and which they consider superior. Having a single system that maintains those advantages but is usable worldwide would be nice.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    Sure, local preferences and regulations do vary, and they matter. I'm sure a lot of countries are hesitant to use American CC networks too, given how American/everyone-else interactions sometimes go. But, that doesn't really solve the problem, it merely pushes things around a bit. It's insufficient to say "credit cards aren't universally loved", because that does not imply that Bitcoin is the correct choice anywhere. It's perfectly possible that the local alternatives to CCs in other nations would still be preferred to Bitcoin. If one wants to sell the idea that BTC is a better choice than X, one must produce compelling reasons why this is so, preferably without relying on ideological statements that don't have universal appeal; I'm sure the goldbugs love BTCs anti-inflation nature, but that argument only carries the day with a very small group of people.
- zorga 8y ago
  > Market dominance is absolutely a fair argument for something being preferred by consumers, It absolutely is not when you're discussing a new technology most consumers don't understand yet or have never used. > unless if you’re going to allege fraud or assert that everyone is dumb. False dichotomy, it's a new technology, most people simply haven't had the chance to use it yet and don't understand it yet. > As an aside, we have internet money. They’re called credit cards and debit cards Those aren't the money I'm referring to, those are 3rd party verified trust you'll get paid systems, money is cash, and doesn't require a 3rd party to be trusted to pay you. > What I have yet to see is an actual explanation for how any proposed “internet money” is superior to my Visa without relying on any ideological claims. It's pretty simple, the same reasons you might want to use cash in the real world rather than credit. When you pay for something with cash, you're not at risk of that vendor taking more than you give him, you don't have to trust him. When you give a vendor a credit card, you're always at risk of fraud, a debit card... you might lose all your cash and you can't dispute those charges, it's not a credit card. Both of those also require the 3rd party to profit, so they charge extra fees. Cash typically has no extra fees (internet cash will, but they should be way lower than cc fees). Beyond that, you need to step outside yourself a bit and be aware of your privilege, much of the world doesn't have access to credit cards and debit cards or even banks. Internet cash is a way for them to join the online world. If you can't get past your first world privilege, you'll never understand. There's no ideology here, I don't think Bitcoin is the right mix of features for a good Internet cash, but Internet cash will come.

by zorga 8y ago

village-idiot 8y ago

Market dominance is absolutely a fair argument for something being preferred by consumers, unless if you’re going to allege fraud or assert that everyone is dumb. It of course doesn’t mean that things will remain this way forever. Credit cards have risen to prominence within living memory, there’s no reason why this has to remain. But it also means that if you expect something to replace credit cards, it must overcome both consumer preference and comfort, as well as all the advantages that the incumbents have. As an aside, we have internet money. They’re called credit cards and debit cards, and we all use them daily to purchase ludicrous amounts of goods and services online and offline. What I have yet to see is an actual explanation for how any proposed “internet money” is superior to my Visa without relying on any ideological claims.

icebraining 8y ago
Well, some people prefer it. Many countries have alternative systems that are more used than CCs, and which they consider superior. Having a single system that maintains those advantages but is usable worldwide would be nice.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  Sure, local preferences and regulations do vary, and they matter. I'm sure a lot of countries are hesitant to use American CC networks too, given how American/everyone-else interactions sometimes go. But, that doesn't really solve the problem, it merely pushes things around a bit. It's insufficient to say "credit cards aren't universally loved", because that does not imply that Bitcoin is the correct choice anywhere. It's perfectly possible that the local alternatives to CCs in other nations would still be preferred to Bitcoin. If one wants to sell the idea that BTC is a better choice than X, one must produce compelling reasons why this is so, preferably without relying on ideological statements that don't have universal appeal; I'm sure the goldbugs love BTCs anti-inflation nature, but that argument only carries the day with a very small group of people.
zorga 8y ago
> Market dominance is absolutely a fair argument for something being preferred by consumers, It absolutely is not when you're discussing a new technology most consumers don't understand yet or have never used. > unless if you’re going to allege fraud or assert that everyone is dumb. False dichotomy, it's a new technology, most people simply haven't had the chance to use it yet and don't understand it yet. > As an aside, we have internet money. They’re called credit cards and debit cards Those aren't the money I'm referring to, those are 3rd party verified trust you'll get paid systems, money is cash, and doesn't require a 3rd party to be trusted to pay you. > What I have yet to see is an actual explanation for how any proposed “internet money” is superior to my Visa without relying on any ideological claims. It's pretty simple, the same reasons you might want to use cash in the real world rather than credit. When you pay for something with cash, you're not at risk of that vendor taking more than you give him, you don't have to trust him. When you give a vendor a credit card, you're always at risk of fraud, a debit card... you might lose all your cash and you can't dispute those charges, it's not a credit card. Both of those also require the 3rd party to profit, so they charge extra fees. Cash typically has no extra fees (internet cash will, but they should be way lower than cc fees). Beyond that, you need to step outside yourself a bit and be aware of your privilege, much of the world doesn't have access to credit cards and debit cards or even banks. Internet cash is a way for them to join the online world. If you can't get past your first world privilege, you'll never understand. There's no ideology here, I don't think Bitcoin is the right mix of features for a good Internet cash, but Internet cash will come.