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China / US / Europe are not good proving grounds for Bitcoin. Those are large single markets served by a single currency. Southeast Asia on the other hand, is f

China / US / Europe are not good proving grounds for Bitcoin. Those are large single markets served by a single currency. Southeast Asia on the other hand, is fragmented across 10 financial systems. What Bitcoin offers, that centralized payment systems cannot in Southeast Asia; is the prospect of having an overlay on top of the local financial systems that is open and interoperable by any startup looking to provide local solutions to the payment puzzle. A wallet app developed in Vietnam for example, can easily receive Bitcoins but cannot easily receive Rupiah. The only requirement is to have proliferation of Bitcoin-fiat exchanges across the region so people can jump in and out of the Bitcoin ecosystem when the need arises. This part of Bitcoin development is not rocket science, just requires time and hard work.

twblalock 8y ago
> The only requirement is to have proliferation of Bitcoin-fiat exchanges across the region No, that's not the only requirement. Other requirements include teaching large numbers of nontechnical people what the heck a cryptocurrency is, how to get and secure a wallet, how to get an account on an exchange, how to convert Bitcoin to and from their local currency, why they can't carry Bitcoin around in their pocket like cash, and who they should talk to if their Bitcoins get stolen or their exchange gets hacked. Or, they could just get a WeChat or Alipay account, which are going to be available in southeast Asia pretty soon. Boom, done.
- Mengkudulangsat 8y ago
  WeChat and Alipay are here already, but the market is already fragmented when they arrive. They also pose the risk of vendor-lock, which is worrisome to local businesses and regulators due to their links to China. It's one thing to have a locally-approved payments monopoly, it's another thing if that monopoly is foreign-owned. If Southeast Asia wants to produce a region-wide equivalent to WeChat / Alipay, then an open, neutral & interoperable platform is the best way to do it, politically speaking.
  - wingerlang 8y ago
    There is the arguably* more local LINE Pay as well. * I know it's a Japanese or Korean company, but I am not sure how much the app is used there.
Ibethewalrus 8y ago
Payment puzzle? I can easily send money with: - Venmo - PayPal - Apple Pay - bank transfer online - direct deposit - wire transfer etc Etc ...
- baddox 8y ago
  How much experience do you have with wire transfers? I have very little experience, but it always proved far from easy.
  - pvg 8y ago
    There was a long post-9/11 stretch during which many US banks made this somewhat annoying. Much less so now, you can do it entirely online, both domestically (although why would you) and internationally. It's just (comparatively) expensive.
    - Qworg 8y ago
      Domestically is due to time cost of money, which makes wires used only for transactions that are giant or must arrive tomorrow.
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    In Europe, and probably many other countries, national transfers are very easy, and international ones are only more difficult because they're less common. They are the default way that most people receive their salary, pay the rent or mortgage, pay utility bills, and in many cases make one-off transactions to small businesses, friends etc. On top of that: - Most countries have methods for making a regular transfer. I pay rent, water, electric, phone and broadband like this; each company can choose how much to take from my account each month. The consumer protection if a business makes a mistake is very high. - Some colleagues use the "push" type regular payments for their children's pocket money. It's common for rent, since that's usually a fixed amount. - There is a mobile app to make it easier to pay friends and very small businesses, since you can use a phone number rather than a bank account number as the identifier. International transfers are less common, but in the last year I've received money from a Spanish organization I worked for, a Singapore company that owed me a refund and didn't want to refund by credit card for some reason, and some German tourists in a remote area who'd lost their wallet. They transferred €200 to me, I withdrew it from an ATM in local currency and handed it over. There are statistics on all these methods (plus cash and cheques) for the UK: https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/PUK-UK-Payments-Markets-2017-Summary-AW-Online.pdf https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/PUK-...
xrd 8y ago
Is anyone doing this kind of thing already there? If not, why not? Are the exchanges regulated out of existence or just not enough entrepreneurs with the right skills to bring them to fruition? Any sites you recommended that are discussing this topic deeper? It's a great comment you made.
- Mengkudulangsat 8y ago
  No single entity needs to take the burden of developing the whole regional infrastructure themselves, they just need to do their own thing, for their own market, and accept Bitcoins for their own wallet. There are exchanges in almost every country in Southeast Asia already, albeit each are fighting local battles with local regulators. They barely even know each other, but each victory strengthens the ecosystem as a whole. I believe Square's cash app is the best approximate for this phenomenon. There are Square clones in almost every country, the moment they follow its lead in accepting Bitcoins is when the interoperability of Bitcoin will be more appreciated.
ian0 8y ago
Why would you convert money from one currency into bitcoin before converting it into another instead of just converting it directly from one currency into the other? - It doesn't reduce cost or forex exposure - It adds to the infrastructure required in both countries - It adds to the complexity to complying with regulations like KYC > A wallet app developed in Vietnam for example, can easily receive Bitcoins but cannot easily receive Rupiah. Yes but the sender cannot easily send bitcoins - because nobody uses them! And if the sender is using an Indonesian mobile wallet, and bitcoin is purely the intermediary network - then why wouldn't this wallet provider not just send the cash in Dong using a bank/remittance provider?
- nicky0 8y ago
  The sender can easily buy bitcoins, the receiver can easily sell them. Neither has to know or care what local currency the other uses. Sending bitcoin is easy in a connected app and requires no permission or blessing from the world's financial and governmental overlords. It's essentially a native "value transfer protocol" of the internet. Wheras managing hundreds of pairs of currencies using some choice of third party intermediary companies brings in third parties, contracts, counterparty risks, regulatory issues, legal issues, risk of government seizure, censorship & interference, etc.
  - ian0 8y ago
    Still doesn't make any sense. - You need a third party intermediary if you want to use bitcoin as an intermediary unless you want to build an exchange yourself. It's just as easy if not more so to use a remittance company. - Why would a sender buy bitcoins to send it to her friend when she can just click "send X rupiah to Nam" and receive a message like "Nam will get Y Dong". Or even "Send Y Dong to Nam" and receive the cost in rupiah. This scenario only works if both the sender and receiver are comfortable in using bitcoin instead of their local currency as their unit of stored value. Which we know nobody is. >> The sender can easily buy bitcoins, the receiver can easily sell them. Neither has to know or care what local currency the other uses. People generally tend to care how much money they will be receiving! > Wheras managing hundreds of pairs of currencies using some choice of third party intermediary companies for remittancing brings in third parties, contracts, counterparty risks, regulatory issues, legal issues, risk of government seizure, censorship & interference, etc. Yes if your a remittance company. Which I assume this application developer isn't. [edited for clarity and as I missed the last part of the comment]

twblalock 8y ago

> The only requirement is to have proliferation of Bitcoin-fiat exchanges across the region No, that's not the only requirement. Other requirements include teaching large numbers of nontechnical people what the heck a cryptocurrency is, how to get and secure a wallet, how to get an account on an exchange, how to convert Bitcoin to and from their local currency, why they can't carry Bitcoin around in their pocket like cash, and who they should talk to if their Bitcoins get stolen or their exchange gets hacked. Or, they could just get a WeChat or Alipay account, which are going to be available in southeast Asia pretty soon. Boom, done.

Mengkudulangsat 8y ago
WeChat and Alipay are here already, but the market is already fragmented when they arrive. They also pose the risk of vendor-lock, which is worrisome to local businesses and regulators due to their links to China. It's one thing to have a locally-approved payments monopoly, it's another thing if that monopoly is foreign-owned. If Southeast Asia wants to produce a region-wide equivalent to WeChat / Alipay, then an open, neutral & interoperable platform is the best way to do it, politically speaking.
- wingerlang 8y ago
  There is the arguably* more local LINE Pay as well. * I know it's a Japanese or Korean company, but I am not sure how much the app is used there.

Ibethewalrus 8y ago

Payment puzzle? I can easily send money with: - Venmo - PayPal - Apple Pay - bank transfer online - direct deposit - wire transfer etc Etc ...

baddox 8y ago
How much experience do you have with wire transfers? I have very little experience, but it always proved far from easy.
- pvg 8y ago
  There was a long post-9/11 stretch during which many US banks made this somewhat annoying. Much less so now, you can do it entirely online, both domestically (although why would you) and internationally. It's just (comparatively) expensive.
  - Qworg 8y ago
    Domestically is due to time cost of money, which makes wires used only for transactions that are giant or must arrive tomorrow.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  In Europe, and probably many other countries, national transfers are very easy, and international ones are only more difficult because they're less common. They are the default way that most people receive their salary, pay the rent or mortgage, pay utility bills, and in many cases make one-off transactions to small businesses, friends etc. On top of that: - Most countries have methods for making a regular transfer. I pay rent, water, electric, phone and broadband like this; each company can choose how much to take from my account each month. The consumer protection if a business makes a mistake is very high. - Some colleagues use the "push" type regular payments for their children's pocket money. It's common for rent, since that's usually a fixed amount. - There is a mobile app to make it easier to pay friends and very small businesses, since you can use a phone number rather than a bank account number as the identifier. International transfers are less common, but in the last year I've received money from a Spanish organization I worked for, a Singapore company that owed me a refund and didn't want to refund by credit card for some reason, and some German tourists in a remote area who'd lost their wallet. They transferred €200 to me, I withdrew it from an ATM in local currency and handed it over. There are statistics on all these methods (plus cash and cheques) for the UK: https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/PUK-UK-Payments-Markets-2017-Summary-AW-Online.pdf https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/PUK-...

xrd 8y ago

Is anyone doing this kind of thing already there? If not, why not? Are the exchanges regulated out of existence or just not enough entrepreneurs with the right skills to bring them to fruition? Any sites you recommended that are discussing this topic deeper? It's a great comment you made.

Mengkudulangsat 8y ago
No single entity needs to take the burden of developing the whole regional infrastructure themselves, they just need to do their own thing, for their own market, and accept Bitcoins for their own wallet. There are exchanges in almost every country in Southeast Asia already, albeit each are fighting local battles with local regulators. They barely even know each other, but each victory strengthens the ecosystem as a whole. I believe Square's cash app is the best approximate for this phenomenon. There are Square clones in almost every country, the moment they follow its lead in accepting Bitcoins is when the interoperability of Bitcoin will be more appreciated.

ian0 8y ago

Why would you convert money from one currency into bitcoin before converting it into another instead of just converting it directly from one currency into the other? - It doesn't reduce cost or forex exposure - It adds to the infrastructure required in both countries - It adds to the complexity to complying with regulations like KYC > A wallet app developed in Vietnam for example, can easily receive Bitcoins but cannot easily receive Rupiah. Yes but the sender cannot easily send bitcoins - because nobody uses them! And if the sender is using an Indonesian mobile wallet, and bitcoin is purely the intermediary network - then why wouldn't this wallet provider not just send the cash in Dong using a bank/remittance provider?

nicky0 8y ago
The sender can easily buy bitcoins, the receiver can easily sell them. Neither has to know or care what local currency the other uses. Sending bitcoin is easy in a connected app and requires no permission or blessing from the world's financial and governmental overlords. It's essentially a native "value transfer protocol" of the internet. Wheras managing hundreds of pairs of currencies using some choice of third party intermediary companies brings in third parties, contracts, counterparty risks, regulatory issues, legal issues, risk of government seizure, censorship & interference, etc.
- ian0 8y ago
  Still doesn't make any sense. - You need a third party intermediary if you want to use bitcoin as an intermediary unless you want to build an exchange yourself. It's just as easy if not more so to use a remittance company. - Why would a sender buy bitcoins to send it to her friend when she can just click "send X rupiah to Nam" and receive a message like "Nam will get Y Dong". Or even "Send Y Dong to Nam" and receive the cost in rupiah. This scenario only works if both the sender and receiver are comfortable in using bitcoin instead of their local currency as their unit of stored value. Which we know nobody is. >> The sender can easily buy bitcoins, the receiver can easily sell them. Neither has to know or care what local currency the other uses. People generally tend to care how much money they will be receiving! > Wheras managing hundreds of pairs of currencies using some choice of third party intermediary companies for remittancing brings in third parties, contracts, counterparty risks, regulatory issues, legal issues, risk of government seizure, censorship & interference, etc. Yes if your a remittance company. Which I assume this application developer isn't. [edited for clarity and as I missed the last part of the comment]