4 ms·

Taler is designed as government spyware. Why it is part of the GNU project is a mystery.

by yarrel 8y ago

jammygit 8y ago
“I wouldn’t want perfect privacy because that would mean it would be impossible to investigate crimes at all. And that’s one of the jobs we need the state to do.” Anyway, I wonder if there is any protection built-in that prevents the exchange from looking you up on linked-in and associating your salary information with your job, then selling the data. It could make salary negotiations a little more unfair. Actually wondering, does anybody know details? This seems it would need some law passed to protect your privacy in this case, and that hasn't been the trend lately (except in the EU).
- cyphar 8y ago
  > Anyway, I wonder if there is any protection built-in that prevents the exchange from looking you up on linked-in and associating your salary information with your job, then selling the data. The same exact problem exists with BitCoin or any other cryptocurrency where you need to pay an exchange money directly (through some method). Most exchanges require you provide government-issued ID (due to the laws in most countries having strict requirements about financial businesses having to know who they are trading with). However, the really clever aspect of Taler is that the privacy is geared towards consumers and not businesses. You have to buy your tokens (as before) from an exchange that might ask for your identity, but after that the tokens can no longer be correlated -- they look completely unrelated to businesses and other users -- which means that correlation-by-credit-card is no longer feasible. In BitCoin, you can in theory correlate transactions made by a given person.
cyphar 8y ago
Absolutely no aspect of Taler could be reasonably described as "government spyware". First of all, only receivers of Taler tokens are auditable (and the reason for this is so that businesses can show they've paid their taxes correctly -- unless you are a "taxation is theft" type of person I'm sure you'll agree that if you want to have large-scale systems of doing transactions this is a requirement unless you want government intervention). Consumers are not auditable, nor is it possible for any third-party to correlate their purchases. Comparing this to BitCoin, you would have to also argue that BitCoin is "government spyware" because it provides a public transaction record -- which is far more information about consumers' transactions than is available through Taler. By the same token, VISA or your bank is government spyware. That's just a ludicrous argument.
- jstanley 8y ago
  > By the same token, VISA or your bank is government spyware. That's just a ludicrous argument. No it isn't! The fact that visa and banks are government spyware is basically why bitcoin was invented in the first place.
  - cyphar 8y ago
    Bitcoin has a public record of every transaction by every user, with every users' current balance made public (the former might be possible to reduce with Lightning, but the latter is not since you have to settle everyone's balance on-chain at the end of the day). Can you please clarify by which token VISA and banks (and GNU Taler) are "government spyware" and Bitcoin is not? I happen to think that none of these systems are "government spyware" but if you want to argue otherwise, it would be nice to have substantiated statements.
    - jstanley 8y ago
      The part where Visa and banks know your name and address and the blockchain doesn't.
      - cyphar 8y ago
        Every single exchange I've used requires providing multiple forms of government ID. Practically speaking, most Bitcoin users identify themselves in this manner. Yeah, there's localbitcoins.com but just because it's technically possible to do doesn't mean that it is a practical difference if very few people do it. Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's generally a problem that all of these institutions know your name and address. But to be honest, I trust my bank to better protect my personal information than some random Bitcoin exchange.
        jstanley 8y ago
        But with Bitcoin you don't have to use any exchange. You can get paid directly in Bitcoin for goods and services. With fiat, there is no way to do digital transactions without attaching your name and address.

Taler is designed as government spyware. Why it is part of the GNU project is a mystery.

by yarrel 8y ago

Taler is designed as government spyware. Why it is part of the GNU project is a mystery.

“I wouldn’t want perfect privacy because that would mean it would be impossible to investigate crimes at all. And that’s one of the jobs we need the state to do.” Anyway, I wonder if there is any protection built-in that prevents the exchange from looking you up on linked-in and associating your salary information with your job, then selling the data. It could make salary negotiations a little more unfair. Actually wondering, does anybody know details? This seems it would need some law passed to protect your privacy in this case, and that hasn't been the trend lately (except in the EU).

cyphar 8y ago
> Anyway, I wonder if there is any protection built-in that prevents the exchange from looking you up on linked-in and associating your salary information with your job, then selling the data. The same exact problem exists with BitCoin or any other cryptocurrency where you need to pay an exchange money directly (through some method). Most exchanges require you provide government-issued ID (due to the laws in most countries having strict requirements about financial businesses having to know who they are trading with). However, the really clever aspect of Taler is that the privacy is geared towards consumers and not businesses. You have to buy your tokens (as before) from an exchange that might ask for your identity, but after that the tokens can no longer be correlated -- they look completely unrelated to businesses and other users -- which means that correlation-by-credit-card is no longer feasible. In BitCoin, you can in theory correlate transactions made by a given person.

cyphar 8y ago

Absolutely no aspect of Taler could be reasonably described as "government spyware". First of all, only receivers of Taler tokens are auditable (and the reason for this is so that businesses can show they've paid their taxes correctly -- unless you are a "taxation is theft" type of person I'm sure you'll agree that if you want to have large-scale systems of doing transactions this is a requirement unless you want government intervention). Consumers are not auditable, nor is it possible for any third-party to correlate their purchases. Comparing this to BitCoin, you would have to also argue that BitCoin is "government spyware" because it provides a public transaction record -- which is far more information about consumers' transactions than is available through Taler. By the same token, VISA or your bank is government spyware. That's just a ludicrous argument.

jstanley 8y ago
> By the same token, VISA or your bank is government spyware. That's just a ludicrous argument. No it isn't! The fact that visa and banks are government spyware is basically why bitcoin was invented in the first place.
- cyphar 8y ago
  Bitcoin has a public record of every transaction by every user, with every users' current balance made public (the former might be possible to reduce with Lightning, but the latter is not since you have to settle everyone's balance on-chain at the end of the day). Can you please clarify by which token VISA and banks (and GNU Taler) are "government spyware" and Bitcoin is not? I happen to think that none of these systems are "government spyware" but if you want to argue otherwise, it would be nice to have substantiated statements.
  - jstanley 8y ago
    The part where Visa and banks know your name and address and the blockchain doesn't.
    - cyphar 8y ago
      Every single exchange I've used requires providing multiple forms of government ID. Practically speaking, most Bitcoin users identify themselves in this manner. Yeah, there's localbitcoins.com but just because it's technically possible to do doesn't mean that it is a practical difference if very few people do it. Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's generally a problem that all of these institutions know your name and address. But to be honest, I trust my bank to better protect my personal information than some random Bitcoin exchange.
      - jstanley 8y ago
        But with Bitcoin you don't have to use any exchange. You can get paid directly in Bitcoin for goods and services. With fiat, there is no way to do digital transactions without attaching your name and address.