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In Melbourne, we have a special police force (protective services officers) to patrol train stations at night. The anti-authoritarian in my dislikes them, but

In Melbourne, we have a special police force (protective services officers) to patrol train stations at night. The anti-authoritarian in my dislikes them, but by all accounts (especially from my female friends), they're actually great. Their mandate is only to stop violence and disorderly behaviour, and they're actually super chill. Ticket inspection and fare evasion isn't part of their purview, which means they're not just armed ticket inspectors. I've had lost of friendly conversations with them while waiting for the train. Compare this to Sydney, where they post full fledged police officers with drug dogs at train stations, which is straight up fascist. The PSOs are also really great at helping out with medical emergencies. I actually see them applying first aid more often than I seem them arresting people. I know that HN is generally an anti-police crowd, and I have no idea what the financial implications would be for getting something like that on the BART (in Melbourne there's generally 2 officers at each station), but they do generally make the train stations a lot safer at night. I don't want to wade too deep into the gun control debate, but it also helps that petty criminals in Australia don't have guns. Unless you're involved with organised crime, there's almost chance you'll be a victim of gun violence here.

bhengaij 8y ago
Chalk it up to a person living life in a cozy office to call cops with drug dogs fascism. If you knew what fasicsm is and people who suffered it (my maternal grandfather) did, I can bet you wont ever use that word again. I don't like a lot of current political leaders either but the way eyeball and click hungry media uses this term and the regular audience eagerly laps them up is disgusting.
umanwizard 8y ago
I don’t like the police any more than you do, but calling police presence in train stations “straight up fascist” cheapens the term. When you call every slightly authoritarian policy “straight up fascist”, nobody will take you seriously when you denounce actually fascist regimes.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  Having police with drug dogs, posted at train stations to catch random people with personal quantities of drugs is straight up fascist in my opinion. Drug use crosses socioeconomic lines, yet drug dogs at train stations (targeted in the poorer suburbs too) ends up unfairly targeting poor people (who are often minorities), especially as wealthier people tend to drive rather than take public transport. Send some drug dogs through the bank offices on a Friday evening and see how much coke you find. Instead they're busting poor people for having a gram of weed on them. Personally, I'd rather that they didn't have drug dogs at all, they tend to victimise users rather than actually stop the root cause of the "problem" (I'm not a fan of drug prohibition at all), i.e. the dealers and the traffickers. Drug traffickers aren't going to be transporting commercial quantities of drugs on the train, they're going to be driving cars. Drug dogs are also generally ineffective and respond more to their handlers signals than actually detecting drugs by scent and are therefore susceptible to their handlers biases, further victimising minorities.
  - King-Aaron 8y ago
    I smoke pot, and don't like the idea of being targeted at train stations because I smoked a spliff the night before while wearing the same sweater. FYI I am not 'poor' and I do have a small fleet of my own cars, but people with a small quantity of money behind them a) also like to smoke drugs on occasion and b) also do use public transport. Edit: I realize that sounded a bit snide, apologies. I think my point is that it's not so much a fascist thing, and I agree with the GP that calling the draconian drug policies fascist does detract from the legitimately scary/quasi-fascist things that are going on. I fear that the more we misconstrue these kinds of arguments, the harder it will be to make progress.
    - toomanybeersies 8y ago
      I guess calling it all-out fascist is perhaps a hyperbole. But it's creeping authoritarianism. To me though, having police posted with dogs at train stations just looks especially authoritarian. Police dogs (whether drug dogs or attack dogs) are primarily a tool for intimidation.
rdtsc 8y ago
> full fledged police officers with drug dogs at train stations, which is straight up fascist. Hmm. Is it the dogs that make them fascists? The uniform? Yeah you shouldn't talk to the police and all that but going straight to fascism seems a bit hyperbolic.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  It's the fact that drug dogs at train stations unfairly target poor people and minorities for possession of personal quantities of drugs (traffickers don't take the train), despite rates of drug use being fairly consistent across socio-economic borders. Drug dogs are also generally also inaccurate and respond heavily to their handlers signals, and are therefore susceptible to their handlers biases. They're basically a tool for creating probable cause for a search (although in New South Wales, apparently refusal to consent to a search is also probable cause, go figure). So yes, it's the dogs that make them fascist.
  - refurb 8y ago
    I see your point about drug dogs on trains adversely impacting poor people, but what does that have to do with fascism?
    - solveit 8y ago
      The fact that Fascism doesn't mean Fascism any more and is now synonymous with whatever flavour of authoritarianism the speaker wants it to mean.
  - masonic 8y ago
    unfairly target poor people and minorities How do they train the dogs to recognize which people are poor?
    - toomanybeersies 8y ago
      As I said, they respond heavily to their handlers signals. Basically the cops can give someone an odd look and the dog will go and sit next to them. The false positive rate for drug dogs can be as high as 80%. That's not really any better than just randomly guessing. Also, people who take public transport tend to be lower-income.
woolvalley 8y ago
Police acting like the armed anti-violence guards they should be is pretty low on the objectionable list that people have with police I would imagine.

bhengaij 8y ago

Chalk it up to a person living life in a cozy office to call cops with drug dogs fascism. If you knew what fasicsm is and people who suffered it (my maternal grandfather) did, I can bet you wont ever use that word again. I don't like a lot of current political leaders either but the way eyeball and click hungry media uses this term and the regular audience eagerly laps them up is disgusting.

umanwizard 8y ago

I don’t like the police any more than you do, but calling police presence in train stations “straight up fascist” cheapens the term. When you call every slightly authoritarian policy “straight up fascist”, nobody will take you seriously when you denounce actually fascist regimes.

toomanybeersies 8y ago
Having police with drug dogs, posted at train stations to catch random people with personal quantities of drugs is straight up fascist in my opinion. Drug use crosses socioeconomic lines, yet drug dogs at train stations (targeted in the poorer suburbs too) ends up unfairly targeting poor people (who are often minorities), especially as wealthier people tend to drive rather than take public transport. Send some drug dogs through the bank offices on a Friday evening and see how much coke you find. Instead they're busting poor people for having a gram of weed on them. Personally, I'd rather that they didn't have drug dogs at all, they tend to victimise users rather than actually stop the root cause of the "problem" (I'm not a fan of drug prohibition at all), i.e. the dealers and the traffickers. Drug traffickers aren't going to be transporting commercial quantities of drugs on the train, they're going to be driving cars. Drug dogs are also generally ineffective and respond more to their handlers signals than actually detecting drugs by scent and are therefore susceptible to their handlers biases, further victimising minorities.
- King-Aaron 8y ago
  I smoke pot, and don't like the idea of being targeted at train stations because I smoked a spliff the night before while wearing the same sweater. FYI I am not 'poor' and I do have a small fleet of my own cars, but people with a small quantity of money behind them a) also like to smoke drugs on occasion and b) also do use public transport. Edit: I realize that sounded a bit snide, apologies. I think my point is that it's not so much a fascist thing, and I agree with the GP that calling the draconian drug policies fascist does detract from the legitimately scary/quasi-fascist things that are going on. I fear that the more we misconstrue these kinds of arguments, the harder it will be to make progress.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    I guess calling it all-out fascist is perhaps a hyperbole. But it's creeping authoritarianism. To me though, having police posted with dogs at train stations just looks especially authoritarian. Police dogs (whether drug dogs or attack dogs) are primarily a tool for intimidation.

rdtsc 8y ago

> full fledged police officers with drug dogs at train stations, which is straight up fascist. Hmm. Is it the dogs that make them fascists? The uniform? Yeah you shouldn't talk to the police and all that but going straight to fascism seems a bit hyperbolic.

toomanybeersies 8y ago
It's the fact that drug dogs at train stations unfairly target poor people and minorities for possession of personal quantities of drugs (traffickers don't take the train), despite rates of drug use being fairly consistent across socio-economic borders. Drug dogs are also generally also inaccurate and respond heavily to their handlers signals, and are therefore susceptible to their handlers biases. They're basically a tool for creating probable cause for a search (although in New South Wales, apparently refusal to consent to a search is also probable cause, go figure). So yes, it's the dogs that make them fascist.
- refurb 8y ago
  I see your point about drug dogs on trains adversely impacting poor people, but what does that have to do with fascism?
  - solveit 8y ago
    The fact that Fascism doesn't mean Fascism any more and is now synonymous with whatever flavour of authoritarianism the speaker wants it to mean.
- masonic 8y ago
  unfairly target poor people and minorities How do they train the dogs to recognize which people are poor?
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    As I said, they respond heavily to their handlers signals. Basically the cops can give someone an odd look and the dog will go and sit next to them. The false positive rate for drug dogs can be as high as 80%. That's not really any better than just randomly guessing. Also, people who take public transport tend to be lower-income.

woolvalley 8y ago

Police acting like the armed anti-violence guards they should be is pretty low on the objectionable list that people have with police I would imagine.