5 ms·

That just screws the middle class (~$40k to $150k). The cost of waging legal warfare against the ticket will still be greater than the inflated fine while the w

by cc439 8y ago

That just screws the middle class (~$40k to $150k). The cost of waging legal warfare against the ticket will still be greater than the inflated fine while the wealthy will easily be able to afford the kind of lawyer who can get an overworked traffic court judge and the cop who has to take a day off from fieldwork to agree to more reasonable terms. The solution to fines is to simply get rid of fines and instead use a more aggressive "point" system. I'm not wealthy by any means but the threat of a $200 ticket has zero impact on my driving habits whereas the threat of having my license suspended if I get 2 tickets in a 12 month span (a hypothetical example of possible punishment btw) would definitely change how I drive. I can't really think of any crime that carries a fine rather than revocation of certain rights where this wouldn't work. The only issue is that of enforcement, you have to make the threat of getting caught a second or third time real enough that the punishment becomes psychologically meaningful.

icebraining 8y ago
License suspension is already used a lot. In fact, it's such a deterrent that states started using it for various non-traffic related punishments, such as failure to pay child support or drug conviction: https://www.npr.org/2014/03/10/288587071/reconsidering-drivers-license-suspensions-as-punishment https://www.npr.org/2014/03/10/288587071/reconsidering-drive...
- thrower123 8y ago
  Taking someone's license for not paying child support has always struck me as stupidly counter-productive, if you want someone to work and actually be capable to pay their child support.
  - TheGrumpyBrit 8y ago
    It's also completely unrelated to the crime. How would you punish somebody who already doesn't have a driving license?
Faark 8y ago
> while the wealthy will easily be able to afford the kind of lawyer who can get [..] more reasonable terms. That will be the case with any effective punishment. You can be sure they'll fight points just as hard. Ofc still way better than a flat fine.
bicubic 8y ago
> The solution to fines is to simply get rid of fines and instead use a more aggressive "point" system. You're assuming the problem that fines address is modifying driver behaviour. It isn't. The primary problem fines address is revenue.
- salvar 8y ago
  That's quite the brush you're painting with there. Is the primary motivation behind fining the same everywhere?
  - bicubic 8y ago
    If the primary motivation anywhere was to alter driver behaviour, a points based penalty system is all it would take. Monetary fines in traffic infringements are entirely for revenue. Anecdote time: a friend from one of the nation's major universities was involved in a road authority funded study to evaluate the safety impact of newly installed speed cameras at several intersections. They found there was none. Said road authority pulled the plug and pretended like the study never existed after that.
    - salvar 8y ago
      Anecdote of my own: In my country, monetary fines in traffic infringements are explicitly not for revenue. They mix into the total state revenue and form a minuscule fraction of it. The police sees none of it. This distinction is made very clear, for example in a parliament answer by the justice minister: "...it is clear that the purpose of fines is not to increase the revenue of police departments but first and foremost to deter traffic violations and increase traffic safety."
      - bicubic 8y ago
        > Anecdote of my own: In my country, monetary fines in traffic infringements are explicitly not for revenue. They mix into the total state revenue [...] You're contradicting your own claim. Just because someone in a PR position says the purpose is not to increase revenue doesn't make it so. It doesn't matter where the revenue goes, the fines generate revenue. If they didn't care about revenue, they'd use penalty points - with the added benefit of not fucking over the lower and middle classes.
dexen 8y ago
>The solution to fines is to simply get rid of fines and instead use a more aggressive "point" system. The points system disproportionately advantages the working poor. Speaking from experience, we have a mixed points+fines[1] system in Poland. A wealthy person can easily weasel his way out of the points by either having a lawyer argue in court, or - especially in case of automated enforcement like speed traps - simply pay a third party (usually poor person who drives little or not at all) to accept the blame & penalty points in his stead by formally admitting to having been driving during the infraction. I've seen many ads for such exchanges. Since several kind of jobs directly depend on being able to drive, the law customarily provides a way to shed the points in an expedited way. Typically it involves taking part in road safety courses and/or extra examination. You pay, you attend - or not, if you pay a little extra on the side - and your points get cancelled out. This is much more doable for somebody with expendable income and ability to shuffle work schedule around. Absent such ability to shed or cancel out the penalty points, any working poor or middle class person who depends on ability to drive to earn the keep is under constant threat of loosing the job. Not a good position to negotiate with the employer. tl;dr: The points system is unfairly burdensome for the working poor due to the system being much influenced by money. All the points do is to hide away the fact that money gets shit done. -- [1] the fine are fixed, and rather mild from middle class' perspective.

by cc439 8y ago

icebraining 8y ago

License suspension is already used a lot. In fact, it's such a deterrent that states started using it for various non-traffic related punishments, such as failure to pay child support or drug conviction: https://www.npr.org/2014/03/10/288587071/reconsidering-drivers-license-suspensions-as-punishment https://www.npr.org/2014/03/10/288587071/reconsidering-drive...

thrower123 8y ago
Taking someone's license for not paying child support has always struck me as stupidly counter-productive, if you want someone to work and actually be capable to pay their child support.
- TheGrumpyBrit 8y ago
  It's also completely unrelated to the crime. How would you punish somebody who already doesn't have a driving license?

Faark 8y ago

> while the wealthy will easily be able to afford the kind of lawyer who can get [..] more reasonable terms. That will be the case with any effective punishment. You can be sure they'll fight points just as hard. Ofc still way better than a flat fine.

bicubic 8y ago

> The solution to fines is to simply get rid of fines and instead use a more aggressive "point" system. You're assuming the problem that fines address is modifying driver behaviour. It isn't. The primary problem fines address is revenue.

salvar 8y ago
That's quite the brush you're painting with there. Is the primary motivation behind fining the same everywhere?
- bicubic 8y ago
  If the primary motivation anywhere was to alter driver behaviour, a points based penalty system is all it would take. Monetary fines in traffic infringements are entirely for revenue. Anecdote time: a friend from one of the nation's major universities was involved in a road authority funded study to evaluate the safety impact of newly installed speed cameras at several intersections. They found there was none. Said road authority pulled the plug and pretended like the study never existed after that.
  - salvar 8y ago
    Anecdote of my own: In my country, monetary fines in traffic infringements are explicitly not for revenue. They mix into the total state revenue and form a minuscule fraction of it. The police sees none of it. This distinction is made very clear, for example in a parliament answer by the justice minister: "...it is clear that the purpose of fines is not to increase the revenue of police departments but first and foremost to deter traffic violations and increase traffic safety."
    - bicubic 8y ago
      > Anecdote of my own: In my country, monetary fines in traffic infringements are explicitly not for revenue. They mix into the total state revenue [...] You're contradicting your own claim. Just because someone in a PR position says the purpose is not to increase revenue doesn't make it so. It doesn't matter where the revenue goes, the fines generate revenue. If they didn't care about revenue, they'd use penalty points - with the added benefit of not fucking over the lower and middle classes.

dexen 8y ago

>The solution to fines is to simply get rid of fines and instead use a more aggressive "point" system. The points system disproportionately advantages the working poor. Speaking from experience, we have a mixed points+fines[1] system in Poland. A wealthy person can easily weasel his way out of the points by either having a lawyer argue in court, or - especially in case of automated enforcement like speed traps - simply pay a third party (usually poor person who drives little or not at all) to accept the blame & penalty points in his stead by formally admitting to having been driving during the infraction. I've seen many ads for such exchanges. Since several kind of jobs directly depend on being able to drive, the law customarily provides a way to shed the points in an expedited way. Typically it involves taking part in road safety courses and/or extra examination. You pay, you attend - or not, if you pay a little extra on the side - and your points get cancelled out. This is much more doable for somebody with expendable income and ability to shuffle work schedule around. Absent such ability to shed or cancel out the penalty points, any working poor or middle class person who depends on ability to drive to earn the keep is under constant threat of loosing the job. Not a good position to negotiate with the employer. tl;dr: The points system is unfairly burdensome for the working poor due to the system being much influenced by money. All the points do is to hide away the fact that money gets shit done. -- [1] the fine are fixed, and rather mild from middle class' perspective.