7 ms·

I've been wanting this for a long time, I wanted to take it further though: I want draft laws, I want to see all representatives as contributors and be able to

I've been wanting this for a long time, I wanted to take it further though: I want draft laws, I want to see all representatives as contributors and be able to see their contributions and changes to draft laws. the House should have a master branch that submits pull requests to another repository, the other chamber having one too The Governor/President gets to approve PR's from that jurisdiction It would become SUPER easy to track origins and changes of laws, let alone browse them, and comment on them. I'd like to see this done retroactively all the way back to English law

bytematic 8y ago
I would love to see a constitution drafted for a fictional country.
- peanutz454 8y ago
  Our better still, a fictional Constitution for all humans on Earth.
  - all2 8y ago
    Good luck with that. There are too many belief sets, even for things like basic freedoms, for everyone to fall under a single law effectively. Any effort to do so will lead to tyranny.
    - r3bl 8y ago
      I think you've missed a key word in the comment you're replying on: fictional Constitution. It's just a process that would lead to some interesting outcome. Nobody's suggesting anything about enforcing that outcome to anyone.
      - all2 8y ago
        Oh. Fair enough.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  You might enjoy reading about constitutions being drafted for real countries - https://www.npr.org/2011/02/10/133657355/The-Nuts-And-Bolts-Of-Writing-A-New-Constitution https://www.npr.org/2011/02/10/133657355/The-Nuts-And-Bolts-...
- karmelapple 8y ago
  Not a constitution, but I did a little something like this for the Declaration of Independence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12021461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12021461
will_brown 8y ago
Here is an example of a platform like what you describe if not exactly, for the Delaware legislature. I am linking to a particular law I followed from inception to passage, an amendment to the Delaware limited liability company Act allowing company records to be kept on Blockchain. https://legis.delaware.gov/BillDetail/26554 https://legis.delaware.gov/BillDetail/26554 You get the name of the Sponsor and co sponsors, additional sponsors, sign status, next steps, committee reports, action history, etc...
- gammateam 8y ago
  Existing platforms have limitations My main problem is that many laws are written as: “Hereby strikes section b of USC1788(1)(iii) and replaced the word or with and” And with this kind of system it would be standardized already on how to see what the modifications look like, or at least jump to that old version of the law easily When the final laws are all merged together after a passed bill makes simple instructions instead of the plain text law, it would be easy to see the version history of that section of the law, or act
  - will_brown 8y ago
    So the bill I linked to includes a link to a PDF of the original bill which passed, if on the other hand there were changes you would see a pdf for each version of the bill. Florida has a search function for their statutes that allows you to then select the year/version of the law. If the Law was amended in a given year in the annotations there are “redline versions” of the law pre amendment, with changes and final. So again similar to what you describe but as you say...limitations to existing systems. Obviously standardization is also another problem, it would be hard enough to work with federal code and 50 states but the reality is each county and city/municipality can have their own bodies of laws, rules, regulations and ordinances...so thousands of bodies of law, in the US alone.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    Yep. Like in the Delaware URL posted by GP, in the first few lines we see, "This section amends Section 18-101..." which is not linked. I don't know if this platform allows one to link to a specific version of a law, but it would seem like a logical next step to help it happen one way or another. A lot of it is probably automatable.
gamblor956 8y ago
They have what you describe, and moreover such a thing has existed in paper form since th this country was formed. Real time access to laws as they are drafted is a Really Bad Idea. Good ideas need time to incubate. The system you want would lead to the sound byte version of legislating.
- mjevans 8y ago
  I actually really like the idea of a set of code branches like the Linux kernel has. Different groups would have their own branches and when they reach something worthy of actually considering 'outside of comity' (their still published but clearly development branch) submit a patch to a staging (discussion) branch which will then hammer things out and get feedback / analysis that leads to a version that is actually voted on.
- baroffoos 8y ago
  I can just imagine shitty news websites exploding over someones draft/brainstorm and hyper criticism of unfinished work.
  - all2 8y ago
    This is why the Constitution was drafted behind closed doors. The contributors needed room to have dumb ideas.
- gammateam 8y ago
  using git doesnt make it a realtime system Only a better system
- derefr 8y ago
  C-SPAN already exists for “sound byte legislating.” Plus, fine-grained version control doesn’t imply real time updates. It’s fully possible to only release the version history to the public after the law is approved.
  - ironmagma 8y ago
Svexav 8y ago
I agree but politicians shouldn't be the contributors. Representatives don't actually write the laws. I'd like to see the name of the staffer or lobbyist who wrote the text. Also, it should be a federal crime to falsify the name of the author or make changes for someone else.
- r00fus 8y ago
  Lobbyists would need the ability to write/amend laws or the current system of graft wouldn't work. I.e., your design if not bug-compatible will be rejected.
- gdfasfklshg4 8y ago
  I would like to see who wrote the text AND who submitted it. As in the lobbyist who wrote the text AND the politician who submitted it...
skohan 8y ago
I'm very much in favor of leveraging the advantages of version control software for legal text. Git seems perfect for this, but GitHub is a terrible choice to host it. Surely we don't want a large corporation owning the platform on which our laws are enshrined. It seems like it would be much better for this to be self-hosted.
- speleding 8y ago
  Github does not own git, it only owns the UI that they've built on top of it. You can simply clone the repo and take it somewhere else and you can find an open source UI replacement to put on top too (e.g. Gitlab). Github is free to use for open source projects, self-hosting by the government would only make it more expensive for the tax payer.
  - skohan 8y ago
    > Github ... owns the UI that they've built on top of it That's the problem though. In principal, if they only use pure-git operations in the process, it would be easy to move at any point. But if they leverage the entire Github platform, i.e. PR discussion, issue tracking etc, then important parts of the legal history will be bound to the github platform. And that's not great. Github is free for public projects for now, but as with any publicly traded tech company, they're able to change the terms of use of their product at any time to suit the needs of the company. When we're talking about enshrining the laws of society, we're talking about a very long-term proposition. Technology companies pivot and or kill products all the time. What if we decided to record legislative history on Google Flow?
    - dgreisen 8y ago
      We take long-term access to the law very seriously. For the reasons you give, we rely only on native git operations. PRs are a convenient interface, nothing more.
    - WorldMaker 8y ago
      There are technical solutions that could be used here. You can JSON dump the PR contents and Issue contents, for example, into another repository (or a branch in the same repository). It wouldn't be hard to automate that process with the GitHub API. That doesn't solve the interop problem that would exist in trying to implement secondary UI systems that can redisplay that information usefully, but ETL of that sort is full of options and developers with experience. JSON dumps of GitHub information would be useful to more open source projects beyond legislative history. I think a good automated solution could be generally useful, if someone wanted to invest in it.
ataturk 8y ago
I want laws to automatically expire after say, 10 years. Make legislators re-justify everything all the time. As far as git pull requests, I'm a bit skeptical. It's kind of like writing laws in pencil, isn't it? But to find and fix errors it would be all right.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

bytematic 8y ago

I would love to see a constitution drafted for a fictional country.

peanutz454 8y ago
Our better still, a fictional Constitution for all humans on Earth.
- all2 8y ago
  Good luck with that. There are too many belief sets, even for things like basic freedoms, for everyone to fall under a single law effectively. Any effort to do so will lead to tyranny.
  - r3bl 8y ago
    I think you've missed a key word in the comment you're replying on: fictional Constitution. It's just a process that would lead to some interesting outcome. Nobody's suggesting anything about enforcing that outcome to anyone.
    - all2 8y ago
      Oh. Fair enough.
lazyasciiart 8y ago
You might enjoy reading about constitutions being drafted for real countries - https://www.npr.org/2011/02/10/133657355/The-Nuts-And-Bolts-Of-Writing-A-New-Constitution https://www.npr.org/2011/02/10/133657355/The-Nuts-And-Bolts-...
karmelapple 8y ago
Not a constitution, but I did a little something like this for the Declaration of Independence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12021461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12021461

will_brown 8y ago

Here is an example of a platform like what you describe if not exactly, for the Delaware legislature. I am linking to a particular law I followed from inception to passage, an amendment to the Delaware limited liability company Act allowing company records to be kept on Blockchain. https://legis.delaware.gov/BillDetail/26554 https://legis.delaware.gov/BillDetail/26554 You get the name of the Sponsor and co sponsors, additional sponsors, sign status, next steps, committee reports, action history, etc...

gammateam 8y ago
Existing platforms have limitations My main problem is that many laws are written as: “Hereby strikes section b of USC1788(1)(iii) and replaced the word or with and” And with this kind of system it would be standardized already on how to see what the modifications look like, or at least jump to that old version of the law easily When the final laws are all merged together after a passed bill makes simple instructions instead of the plain text law, it would be easy to see the version history of that section of the law, or act
- will_brown 8y ago
  So the bill I linked to includes a link to a PDF of the original bill which passed, if on the other hand there were changes you would see a pdf for each version of the bill. Florida has a search function for their statutes that allows you to then select the year/version of the law. If the Law was amended in a given year in the annotations there are “redline versions” of the law pre amendment, with changes and final. So again similar to what you describe but as you say...limitations to existing systems. Obviously standardization is also another problem, it would be hard enough to work with federal code and 50 states but the reality is each county and city/municipality can have their own bodies of laws, rules, regulations and ordinances...so thousands of bodies of law, in the US alone.
- rhizome 8y ago
  Yep. Like in the Delaware URL posted by GP, in the first few lines we see, "This section amends Section 18-101..." which is not linked. I don't know if this platform allows one to link to a specific version of a law, but it would seem like a logical next step to help it happen one way or another. A lot of it is probably automatable.

gamblor956 8y ago

They have what you describe, and moreover such a thing has existed in paper form since th this country was formed. Real time access to laws as they are drafted is a Really Bad Idea. Good ideas need time to incubate. The system you want would lead to the sound byte version of legislating.

mjevans 8y ago
I actually really like the idea of a set of code branches like the Linux kernel has. Different groups would have their own branches and when they reach something worthy of actually considering 'outside of comity' (their still published but clearly development branch) submit a patch to a staging (discussion) branch which will then hammer things out and get feedback / analysis that leads to a version that is actually voted on.
baroffoos 8y ago
I can just imagine shitty news websites exploding over someones draft/brainstorm and hyper criticism of unfinished work.
- all2 8y ago
  This is why the Constitution was drafted behind closed doors. The contributors needed room to have dumb ideas.
gammateam 8y ago
using git doesnt make it a realtime system Only a better system
derefr 8y ago
C-SPAN already exists for “sound byte legislating.” Plus, fine-grained version control doesn’t imply real time updates. It’s fully possible to only release the version history to the public after the law is approved.
- ironmagma 8y ago

Svexav 8y ago

I agree but politicians shouldn't be the contributors. Representatives don't actually write the laws. I'd like to see the name of the staffer or lobbyist who wrote the text. Also, it should be a federal crime to falsify the name of the author or make changes for someone else.

r00fus 8y ago
Lobbyists would need the ability to write/amend laws or the current system of graft wouldn't work. I.e., your design if not bug-compatible will be rejected.
gdfasfklshg4 8y ago
I would like to see who wrote the text AND who submitted it. As in the lobbyist who wrote the text AND the politician who submitted it...

skohan 8y ago

I'm very much in favor of leveraging the advantages of version control software for legal text. Git seems perfect for this, but GitHub is a terrible choice to host it. Surely we don't want a large corporation owning the platform on which our laws are enshrined. It seems like it would be much better for this to be self-hosted.

speleding 8y ago
Github does not own git, it only owns the UI that they've built on top of it. You can simply clone the repo and take it somewhere else and you can find an open source UI replacement to put on top too (e.g. Gitlab). Github is free to use for open source projects, self-hosting by the government would only make it more expensive for the tax payer.
- skohan 8y ago
  > Github ... owns the UI that they've built on top of it That's the problem though. In principal, if they only use pure-git operations in the process, it would be easy to move at any point. But if they leverage the entire Github platform, i.e. PR discussion, issue tracking etc, then important parts of the legal history will be bound to the github platform. And that's not great. Github is free for public projects for now, but as with any publicly traded tech company, they're able to change the terms of use of their product at any time to suit the needs of the company. When we're talking about enshrining the laws of society, we're talking about a very long-term proposition. Technology companies pivot and or kill products all the time. What if we decided to record legislative history on Google Flow?
  - dgreisen 8y ago
    We take long-term access to the law very seriously. For the reasons you give, we rely only on native git operations. PRs are a convenient interface, nothing more.
  - WorldMaker 8y ago
    There are technical solutions that could be used here. You can JSON dump the PR contents and Issue contents, for example, into another repository (or a branch in the same repository). It wouldn't be hard to automate that process with the GitHub API. That doesn't solve the interop problem that would exist in trying to implement secondary UI systems that can redisplay that information usefully, but ETL of that sort is full of options and developers with experience. JSON dumps of GitHub information would be useful to more open source projects beyond legislative history. I think a good automated solution could be generally useful, if someone wanted to invest in it.

ataturk 8y ago

I want laws to automatically expire after say, 10 years. Make legislators re-justify everything all the time. As far as git pull requests, I'm a bit skeptical. It's kind of like writing laws in pencil, isn't it? But to find and fix errors it would be all right.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]