5 ms·

I've been frustrated lately that my rating as a passenger in Uber is at 4.78 and falling despite my own preception of always being an excellent passenger. I can

by yosito 8y ago

I've been frustrated lately that my rating as a passenger in Uber is at 4.78 and falling despite my own preception of always being an excellent passenger. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to have your entire life controlled by this type of rating system. I listened to a podcast that dug into how once you get into a hole with this type of rating system it's self-reinforcing and practically impossible to get out of. This can't be a good thing for civil liberties.

paraditedc 8y ago
Unlike Uber (or even HN for that matter), China's social credit system is transparent and explicit in the way it rewards or deducts points. You know what you did wrongly to lose points, so that you can avoid it next time. You also know what are good things that you can do to improve your score.
- ndnxhs 8y ago
  Which is perfect for the government because everyone will change their behaviours to match what the government wants.
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    Totally agree.
  - throwaway34924 8y ago
    But the government is made up of people. If I recall, there are something like 90 million members in the CCP. And really, any Chinese citizen can join and move up the ranks.
    - mtgx 8y ago
      So we're pretending Xi is not a dictator now? Did we forget how he arrested all of his real opponents and critics before re-election? You make it sound like China is almost a democracy which couldn't be farther from the truth.
- bsder 8y ago
  > You know what you did wrongly to lose points, so that you can avoid it next time. Except if you don't agree with the definition of "wrong" and "good". THAT you can't correct.
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    No need to use capital letters. I fully agree.
- rapnie 8y ago
  It is not all that transparent. At a certain point you will end up on one or more blacklists, and there is no clear way to get off it again, or even arbitrage this act. https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/12/chinas-chilling-social-credit-blacklist https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/12/chinas-chilling-social-c... Then the rules system is very complex, and probably will be ever changing, being fine-tuned. There are rules in preparation (or already implemented) where your network of friends and relatives affect your credit score, etc. Very dystopic social engineering. It will be harder and harder to check whether all rules are applied equally across all people, I imagine.
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    > At a certain point you will end up on one or more blacklists, and there is no clear way to get off it again, or even arbitrage this act. > There are rules in preparation (or already implemented) where your network of friends and relatives affect your credit score, etc. Are these your opinions or facts? I'm talking about facts here.
    - rapnie 8y ago
      Besides the link I already provided, there are countless other articles about the blacklists: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=china+social+credit+blacklist&t=fpas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=china+social+credit+blacklist&t=fp... There are also many mentions of your friends network affecting your score, like in this Wired article from 2017: > Zhima Credit’s algorithm considers not only whether you repay your bills but also what you buy, what degrees you hold, and the scores of your friends. https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/ https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/
      - paraditedc 8y ago
        > Zhima Credit’s algorithm considers not only whether you repay your bills but also what you buy, what degrees you hold, and the scores of your friends. I think you misunderstood what this means. It means when taking loans, the algorithm takes into account your score as well as your friends. This assertion in itself I must say I didn't find from any other sources. This, even if proven to true, is completely different from what you are suggesting (i.e. your friend's score affecting your score). Also, this Zhima Credit is just a private owned, part of the system which focuses on financial well being of individuals, it's not linked to other component of the system. Other social score components might not have this network effect.
- mtgx 8y ago
  Transparency will also make it very easy to abide by some, though. Like imagine if Google's ranking algorithm was public. SEO spammers would greatly profit from that but overall the system would suffer due to their over-optimization for some things.
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    Hold on a sec. You are advocating for less transparency for government policies? I need to bookmark this.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
gushers 8y ago
frustrated lately that my rating as a passenger in Uber is at 4.78 and falling Mother of God, passenger ratings? I'm glad I've never used Uber, and now I am certain I never will. I mean, of all things, I don't even like the HN karma system. Arbitrary frowny faces for The Wrong Kind of Joke only now, scale that up first, just to taxi drivers, and then apply it to Society At Large, All Day Every Day.
- bsder 8y ago
  Welcome to Capitalism 2.0. Every consumer interaction now rates you as a customer. Amazon will drop you if you return too many things. Uber/Lyft have ratings systems. etc. Until we start making the holding of personal information the equivalent of holding toxic sludge, nothing will change.
- RhodesianHunter 8y ago
  Uber/Taxi drivers are people too, and their vehicles are an important part of their livelihood. They deserve the right to avoid the types of people who end up with 1 star reviews on Uber. Hint: you have the vomit in, steal from, or otherwise wreak havoc MORE THAN ONCE for it to get that bad.
  - AlexandrB 8y ago
    Suppose I go through a tough patch in my life - perhaps a stressful period combined with a serious medical problem - and during this time I vomit in several Ubers, driving my customer rating to < 3. Is it possible to fix this? Am I going to have to change my name, email, and phone number before I can use Uber again? And how is this AT ALL better than the old taxi system, where the taxi company owned the car and was able to insure itself against this kind of damage caused by passengers? Not to mention that if Uber is successful, it's likely to become the only game in town - whereas taxi services are quite diverse by comparison. Also, why do you assume that I have to be a "bad person" to get a bad rating? What if I'm a minority living in an area where my background is looked upon with suspicion or hatred?
    - 8y ago
james_damore 8y ago
I've got an even lower rating despite being a super well behaved guy. I'm convinced it's because of the people I split Ubers with.
throwaway34924 8y ago
Is it Uber that is giving you the rating or the drivers? Because in China, it would be the government giving you the rating, not other people.

by yosito 8y ago

paraditedc 8y ago

Unlike Uber (or even HN for that matter), China's social credit system is transparent and explicit in the way it rewards or deducts points. You know what you did wrongly to lose points, so that you can avoid it next time. You also know what are good things that you can do to improve your score.

ndnxhs 8y ago
Which is perfect for the government because everyone will change their behaviours to match what the government wants.
- paraditedc 8y ago
  Totally agree.
- throwaway34924 8y ago
  But the government is made up of people. If I recall, there are something like 90 million members in the CCP. And really, any Chinese citizen can join and move up the ranks.
  - mtgx 8y ago
    So we're pretending Xi is not a dictator now? Did we forget how he arrested all of his real opponents and critics before re-election? You make it sound like China is almost a democracy which couldn't be farther from the truth.
bsder 8y ago
> You know what you did wrongly to lose points, so that you can avoid it next time. Except if you don't agree with the definition of "wrong" and "good". THAT you can't correct.
- paraditedc 8y ago
  No need to use capital letters. I fully agree.
rapnie 8y ago
It is not all that transparent. At a certain point you will end up on one or more blacklists, and there is no clear way to get off it again, or even arbitrage this act. https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/12/chinas-chilling-social-credit-blacklist https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/12/chinas-chilling-social-c... Then the rules system is very complex, and probably will be ever changing, being fine-tuned. There are rules in preparation (or already implemented) where your network of friends and relatives affect your credit score, etc. Very dystopic social engineering. It will be harder and harder to check whether all rules are applied equally across all people, I imagine.
- paraditedc 8y ago
  > At a certain point you will end up on one or more blacklists, and there is no clear way to get off it again, or even arbitrage this act. > There are rules in preparation (or already implemented) where your network of friends and relatives affect your credit score, etc. Are these your opinions or facts? I'm talking about facts here.
  - rapnie 8y ago
    Besides the link I already provided, there are countless other articles about the blacklists: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=china+social+credit+blacklist&t=fpas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=china+social+credit+blacklist&t=fp... There are also many mentions of your friends network affecting your score, like in this Wired article from 2017: > Zhima Credit’s algorithm considers not only whether you repay your bills but also what you buy, what degrees you hold, and the scores of your friends. https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/ https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/
    - paraditedc 8y ago
      > Zhima Credit’s algorithm considers not only whether you repay your bills but also what you buy, what degrees you hold, and the scores of your friends. I think you misunderstood what this means. It means when taking loans, the algorithm takes into account your score as well as your friends. This assertion in itself I must say I didn't find from any other sources. This, even if proven to true, is completely different from what you are suggesting (i.e. your friend's score affecting your score). Also, this Zhima Credit is just a private owned, part of the system which focuses on financial well being of individuals, it's not linked to other component of the system. Other social score components might not have this network effect.
mtgx 8y ago
Transparency will also make it very easy to abide by some, though. Like imagine if Google's ranking algorithm was public. SEO spammers would greatly profit from that but overall the system would suffer due to their over-optimization for some things.
- paraditedc 8y ago
  Hold on a sec. You are advocating for less transparency for government policies? I need to bookmark this.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

gushers 8y ago

frustrated lately that my rating as a passenger in Uber is at 4.78 and falling Mother of God, passenger ratings? I'm glad I've never used Uber, and now I am certain I never will. I mean, of all things, I don't even like the HN karma system. Arbitrary frowny faces for The Wrong Kind of Joke only now, scale that up first, just to taxi drivers, and then apply it to Society At Large, All Day Every Day.

bsder 8y ago
Welcome to Capitalism 2.0. Every consumer interaction now rates you as a customer. Amazon will drop you if you return too many things. Uber/Lyft have ratings systems. etc. Until we start making the holding of personal information the equivalent of holding toxic sludge, nothing will change.
RhodesianHunter 8y ago
Uber/Taxi drivers are people too, and their vehicles are an important part of their livelihood. They deserve the right to avoid the types of people who end up with 1 star reviews on Uber. Hint: you have the vomit in, steal from, or otherwise wreak havoc MORE THAN ONCE for it to get that bad.
- AlexandrB 8y ago
  Suppose I go through a tough patch in my life - perhaps a stressful period combined with a serious medical problem - and during this time I vomit in several Ubers, driving my customer rating to < 3. Is it possible to fix this? Am I going to have to change my name, email, and phone number before I can use Uber again? And how is this AT ALL better than the old taxi system, where the taxi company owned the car and was able to insure itself against this kind of damage caused by passengers? Not to mention that if Uber is successful, it's likely to become the only game in town - whereas taxi services are quite diverse by comparison. Also, why do you assume that I have to be a "bad person" to get a bad rating? What if I'm a minority living in an area where my background is looked upon with suspicion or hatred?
  - 8y ago

james_damore 8y ago

I've got an even lower rating despite being a super well behaved guy. I'm convinced it's because of the people I split Ubers with.

throwaway34924 8y ago

Is it Uber that is giving you the rating or the drivers? Because in China, it would be the government giving you the rating, not other people.