8 ms·

Ask HN: Resources for blind developers and sysadmins?

• neom 8y ago
  I worked with a blind software engineer for quite some time. He's tweeted a little bit about it in the past[1], he's also one of my favourite people I've worked with, he's incredibly kind and I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you reached out. Wishing you well. [1] https://twitter.com/ezufelt/status/1003070722879651840 https://twitter.com/ezufelt/status/1003070722879651840
• AndrewOMartin 8y ago
  I know 'ed' isn't commonly regarded as the peak of accessible interface design, but it occurred to me recently that it was at least designed under the assumption that the user wouldn't be able to see their document, and that retrieving/printing content from the document would be relatively expensive and inconvenient. I wonder therefore if ed might be a surprisingly accessible editor for users with vision issues, or maybe its a case of users without vision issues simply finding it "no less hellish".
  • snazz 8y ago
    See Edbrowse[0] for a web browser and text editor designed with ed user interface principals. It’s made by a blind computer user. [0]: http://edbrowse.org http://edbrowse.org
    • AndrewOMartin 8y ago
      Lovely response, thx. The philosophy of edbrowse, plus some light computing history, is in a beautiful article linked from that page. http://www.eklhad.net/philosophy.html http://www.eklhad.net/philosophy.html
• mltony 8y ago
  Blind software engineer here. Sorry to hear about your eyesight issues, dealing with that is always hard, but the good news is that there is life here. I've been working on a bunch of open source projects and recently I found a full time job as developer. I know almost a dozen blind software developers working in big IT companies. Let me introduce you to the tools you can use. There are basically two types of tools: screen magnifiers for those with low vision and screenreaders for those who don't have any usable vision. Judging by your description, you might want to start with a magnifier. In the unfortunate case if your vision keeps getting worse, you can consider switching to a screenereader. Magnifiers are obviously easier to learn, but you can write code and do all the good stuff with screenreaders too. I am not that familiar with Magnifiers, but I've heard that the most popular one is called ZoomText and it is for Windows. Macs have their own magnifier, not sure about Linux. In the world of screenreaders you have NVDA and JAWS for Windows, VoiceOver for Mac, ORCA for Linux and also EmacsSpeak, which is an accessibility extension for Emacs. You can also use phones with screenreader: there is VoiceOver for iPhone and TalkBack for android. One suggestion is try to find an organisation in your country that deals with blind and low-vision people - ask your eye doctor if he knows any - they might be very useful in your situation as they can recommend a lot of tools and resources specific for your country, such as white cane trainig, if you need it, guide dogs, braille training, they can also probably teach you how to use screenreaders and magnifiers. Feel free to contact me if you have any more questions: anton <dot> malykh <at> gmail. And good luck!
  • therein 8y ago
    > Sorry to hear about your eyesight issues, dealing with that is always hard, but the good news is that there is life here. You're awesome. Reading this made me tear up a little bit. There were a few blind software engineers at my previous workplace and I've always found it admirable. I wish you all the best. As a software engineer, one of my greatest fears is losing my eyesight. I am currently not showing any signs of macular degeneration but having had LASIK, I am under increased risk of that happening. Had I known more, I would have kept my cornea intact. Now I feel slightly worried whenever I have problems focusing on text at night or getting blurry vision for a brief moment on occasion when I blink as these might be early signs.
  • 8y ago
• sbahram 8y ago
  This is a pretty broad topic, and many people have spent their lives working in the digital inclusion and accessibility space, so I don't mean for this to even remotely be exhaustive, but at a high-level, I can offer some thoughts that may be of help. Let's consider two groups for now, though there are many others. Folks who are blind or have pretty impaired vision and then those who have some usable vision. For those of us who are blind or mostly blind, we use speech and Braille to interact with technology instead of a visual user interface (UI). The program that translates the UI into speech/braille is typically a screenreader. On Windows, the two popular screenreaders are Jaws and NVDA. Jaws is proprietary, costing upwards of $1K to $1.5K depending on add-ons, etc., and was widely considered the best game in town for the longest time. around 11 years ago, two blind guys out of Australia, Mik and Jamie (Jamie now works for Mozilla), rightfully thought it was ridiculous that an already disadvantaged audience should have to pay more than what most folks pay for their computers to access them, and so they worked on the free and open source NVDA screenreader , which stands for non-visual desktop access. Anyways, on Mac, there's the built-In VoiceOver screenreader from Apple, though the mobile instantiation of this screenreader, the one that is built into every single IOS, WatchOs, and TVOS device tends to be superior to its desktop counterpart, which is suboptimal wen it comes to surfing the web, interacting with programs, etc. in my and others' opinion. For our second group, there's screen enlargement. Hell, back in the DOS days, I would have my nose on the glass of the CRT monitor to read the text, which I enlarged a bit because my brother showed me the 'mode 40' command which did 40 lines per screen instead of 80, thereby doubling the height of characters and at that time, making them readable to me. Now, I rely purely on screenreading-based approaches. Programs like the magnifier built into Windows and Mac, ZoomText, and others exist to enlarge the contents of the display, change foreground and background colors far past OS capabilities, offer auto-panning and focus-tracking, and generally act as you would expect a smart magnifying glass to behave. Again, shout out to Apple here: all of their devices have this feature built-in. So, in Linux land, we've got the Orca screenreader. Joanie has done a truly incredible job managing that project and the volunteer community is awesome, but it's not anywhere near as resourced as NVDA, for example. Therefore, I consider Orca a labor of love and the best tool around for accessing the Gnome desktop, but it's not as fully-featured as NVDA, Jaws, etc. again IMHO. On Linux natively, there is also the SpeakUp screen reader, which patches directly into the kernel and intercepts input/output buffers. SpeakUp has the advantage of getting you speech earlier to boot-time, and it supported/supports a myriad of hardware synthesizers, which is still a big deal for a subset of screenreading users. It does not work in GUI environments though. I'd be remiss if I did not point out Emacspeak, though it is a self-voicing Emacs environment with all the advantages and disadvantages therein. Gnome, and maybe KDE?, also has magnification, but it's been a little while since I've played with this, so not sure if it's just using magnification primitives of basic video card driver stuff, actually manipulating underlying windowing primitives, etc. So, I know that's a ton of background/lead-in, and I apologize, but I just wanted to contextualize some of these answers. Also, note that I'm leaving out a solid 90% of things. For sys-admin stuff, back when I did a lot more of it, I would use my windows laptop and then ssh to access an army of machines running various operating systems, mostly Linux. I would write scripts in Perl, later Python, to automate things for me, as most sysadmins do. I would usually find a way to edit on my Windows PC, and then transfer the files to the right place. Over the years, this has seen me explore everything from samba shares, SFTP-mapped drives, two terminals open with an up-arrow of an scp command prepped to go, shared drives with multiple OS environments accessing it like in the case of VMWare mirroring out a disk, etc. etc. The reason for this is that editing on Windows tends to be far more accessible than relying on the interplay of nano or vi within an ssh window. Don't get me wrong, if I need to dip in an change a hosts file, quickly edit an nginx config, go modify a crontab entry, whatever ... those are doable with a nano or vi invocation in my ssh window, but for more complex editing (think back to going through all the lines of php.ini or making sure fstab is all good, etc.) then I would bring the file to windows, edit and send back. Yes, this is as annoying as it sounds, and I used to be a wizard at fromdos and the tofrodos tools, etc. Anything web-based is of course froth with whether or not its accessible. Hell, HN isn't exactly great in this space, having some truly avoidable and bad web accessibility (just saying ... would take less than a day to make this website so much easier to use with a screen reader). For what I mean by web accessibility, take a look at the WCAG 2.1 by the W3C. I'll put links at the bottom of this message for as many things as I can think of. I mention web accessibility, though, because of tools like PhpMyAdmin, SQLBuddy, the web interface on routers and switches and PDUs, etc. There again, I like Ubiquiti products for example, since I can ssh into them and go to town. Other sysadmin tasks involve things like port scanning, network traffic capture, setting up permissions, installing applications, etc., which are all done in similar ways, but it's the "how" that's different, not the "what", if that makes sense. I use nmap just like you for port scanning, but I may do stuff like redirect the output to a file that's growing and then use notepad or wordpad to consume that file as it grows, or 'tail -f ' it with greps sprinkled into the pipe chain just to make it less noisy. Speaking of output being noisy, conventions matter, right? So, for example, imagine parsing a web access log with speech. You can visually just gloss over the timestamp and host information to get the crux of what you want to look for, but I have to listened to most/all of that content to get to what I want. To this end, I would either specify different format strings to put important information up front on the line, but then I've got non-standard logs, or do creative things with awk/gawk/perl one-liners, etc. I feel this has turned more into high-level thoughts and less tools, so maybe I should end with apologizing that I'm not sure I even remotely answered your question, but felt this info could add some context to the discussion. If you are looking for highly specific strategies and targeted solutions, I would be happy to speak with you one-on-one over email, voice, etc. I believe strongly in paying things forward, and there have been many folks who have helped me along the way. Fun fact, I wrote this in Outlook's new email window, spell-checked it a bit, and then pasted it into HN's edit field. Something that may seem totally weird, but a type of computer interaction I don't even think about anymore, even though it's probably quite different than how most folks use various applications, web or otherwise. The reason for this is that the affordances of web edit fields, even when some accessibility has been taken into account, are minimal in comparison to far more accessible interactions like the new message window of Outlook. Some links: WCAG 2.1 https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/ https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/ orca Screenreader https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/ https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/ NVDA Screenreader https://www.nvaccess.org/about-nvda/ https://www.nvaccess.org/about-nvda/ speakup Project: http://www.linux-speakup.org/ http://www.linux-speakup.org/ JAWS Screenreader: https://www.freedomscientific.com/Products/Blindness/JAWS https://www.freedomscientific.com/Products/Blindness/JAWS zoomtext Magnifier: https://www.zoomtext.com/ https://www.zoomtext.com/ emacspeak http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/ http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/ cheers, and I do wish you all the best with your vision. Thank you for asking this question on HN. I hope others contribute to the conversation and this gets some increased awareness.
• Corvus 8y ago
  There was a discussion about this a while back at a Tetra Society meeting; http://www.tetrasociety.org/ http://www.tetrasociety.org/. One idea I thought promising was audio games and household assistance delivered through devices like Google Home and Amazon Echo. They could be programmed and controlled though a natural-language API like Inform7, which is used for interactive fiction. I do not know of any working tools for developing these, but I heard of a BBC experiment called "The Inspection Chamber" that allows playing audio games solely through voice. There is an article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/pilots/inspection-chamber https://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/pilots/inspection-chamber
• WalterBright 8y ago
  A very interesting thread about this on HN recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18414562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18414562
  • Cyphase 8y ago
    Parent link is: (Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?) And another related thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18478776 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18478776 (Ask HN: Blind programmers, what can I do to make my code easier for you?)
• userbinator 8y ago
  You may find this previous item about a blind developer using Visual(!) Studio interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14347908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14347908
• slartibardfast0 8y ago
  apologies if the non-software related comment is unwelcome. I know some people who were afflicted by macular degeneration at a younger ago. They speak positively about supplements that contain all three of lutein, zeaxanthin and meso-zeaxanthin[1]; which have shown some solid results[2] in slowing down progress of dry MD & preventing its progress to wet MD. Wising you the very best of luck managing this! 1. Macushield or Macushield Gold (AREDS formula) https://www.macushield.com/ https://www.macushield.com/ 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4963902/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4963902/
• zersiax 8y ago
  Another blind developer chipping in, although most things really have already been said. I have only recently (over the last 4-5 years) started programming professionally, and I have certainly run into my fair share of hurtles along the way. However, by figuring out workarounds or alternatives to inaccessible tools, you can certainly be efficient in this space without using your eyes at all. I have no experience using magnification software as I am fully blind myself, but like others I'd also be more than happy to talk about the little tricks of the trade I've picked up over the years. Feel free to reach out on Twitter or so ( @zersiax ).
  • stochastician 8y ago
    Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I knew some prolific visually-impaired developers in my youth, and never had the wherewithal to ask them questions about their toolchain. 1. what can we as engineers without visual impairments do to make our work more accessible and easier to collaborate with? 2. are there tools that you wish existed / could make your life easier, but that would require a significant capital outlay / massive time commitment? of course you're a dev and can "scratch that itch" yourself, but there are only so many hours in the day and you have a day job. I had a friend who was red-green colorblind who pointed out to me that a lot of the color schemes I was using in my talks were hard for him to quickly understand, and it was (pardon the pun) quite eye-opening.
  • PakG1 8y ago
    Many thanks, may do so in the future. :)
• p932 8y ago
  Sorry about a bit off-topic and not directly answering your questions but your story resonated with my experience. Maybe it might help you or not :) I've had surgeries on both my eyes for retinal detachment before I was 22 years old (30ish now). I am now handling myopia of -16 due to bad eyes and post-surgery effects. I don't want to insinuate that you have the same conditions but I dealt with similar symptoms. Sudden loss of vision, dark circles and dark drops passing in the vision is a scary and distraught feeling. The thought process you describe happened to me as well and is still in-progress. Dealing with the fact that having such issues "early" in life poses questions and anxiety for what might happen later. I kind of navigated over the years with two ways of dealing with this. First as you today with the ideas of pro-active actions to prepare for the day I might go blind: learning braille, using a computer without or very poor sight and thinking about possible career transitions. I was lucky enough that the surgeries went well and my sight "kind of" stabilized. Over the years I adopted a more "optimistic" approach. Even with a bad start, it is still only a possibility and not a certainty to become blind. I decided to live my life as fully as possible with my current sight and avoid to end-up in a anxiety circle about it. Who knows I might still have my sight for life. And by the time it might deteriorate, technology and medical science will have improve, thus hopefully increasing the chances in treatment, tools and possibilities. Good luck for everything.
• DoreenMichele 8y ago
  This Ask showed up on a Google Group I happen to co-own called Blind Dev Works. So far, it's been very low traffic, but it is a resource that already exists intended to support the needs of blind developers. You and any other blind developers here (or potential allies) are welcome to join. Just send a join request. I'll approve it. https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!forum/blind-dev-works https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!forum/blind-dev-works (I'm visually impaired, but not blind. I'm not really a programmer either, though I still hope to be one someday.)
  • PakG1 8y ago
    Thanks, I'll join soon, depending on my prognosis. Hope it's not bad to say this, but prefer to not join too many things to limit the volume of emails going into my inbox! :)
    • DoreenMichele 8y ago
      Whatever works for you.
• PakG1 8y ago
  Thanks everyone, HN rocks as usual. :)
• bayesian_horse 8y ago
  Considering vision problems: I wonder if VR headsets could be hacked to be a useful screen-magnifier. The screen would not necessarily be represented like a big movie screen, but you could move around the screen using head motions. Not sure about the ergonomics of this, but it might work better than solutions on standard computer screens.
  • shironineja 8y ago
    I have a strong vision impairment and have tried this when Occulus first came out. I found the lag not good and became no longer interested in this problem. There are a few vendors working in this space whose hardware is slowly getting better ... https://www.esighteyewear.com/technology https://www.esighteyewear.com/technology
• gostsamo 8y ago
  One more resource for visually impaired developers is program-l@freelists.org
• shitloadofbooks 8y ago
  On a tangent to this, I do 6-8 hours a week "volunteer" work with a friend of mine who is an audio engineer. (It's actually paid work, but I've never raised my price over the past 14 years from when I was 18, so it's essentially just minimum wage/spending money and keeps the relationship professional.) He uses Windows, Window Eyes and NVDA, Cubase and Mixbus and an absolute shitload of custom-written AutoHotkey macros and C# applications which I've written over the past 10 years. He's amazingly effective (and for certain workflows, with the help of the macros, far more effective than sighted people) and has recorded, mix and produced a broad range of music. My point is, it sucks, but there are some incredible people, doing incredible things, who are completely blind. Good luck!
• renaulth 8y ago
  Hi there, sorry to hear about your sudden vision loss. I'm also visually impaired with a similar condition as yours. I'm also a software developer, mainly using Visual Studio, and I use the Windows Magnifier in docked mode at the top of the screen. My usable vision in my left (bad) eye, is similar to looking through a frosted glass pane, my right eye is better and allows me to use a pc as long as I zoom in on things. Some things or adjustments I have made: 1) At work and at home I use a 27" 4K monitor. This is so that I can zoom in on things without it becoming terribly blurry. You could go bigger than this, say like a 40", but I've never tried it. 2) I also often wear sunglasses in the office to block some glare from ambient light and from the screen. This dims things quite a bit, but you get used to it. I can touch type, but mostly only the letters on the keyboard, so I sometimes struggle with the punctuation or programming symbols while I have the sunglasses on. I guess I could get a keyboard with backlit keys. 3) At home I use Safari's Reader mode A LOT, this helps reduce clutter, and allows me to zoom text automatically to a standard font and size. I always joke by saying I wish the web would go back to black on white html :) 4) I take a daily vitamin called Ocuvite, formulated with Lutein. As for day to day development tasks, it's not that bad, however, it's important that you make your condition aware to your colleagues, so that they can understand and accommodate you. Whenever I go over to someones desk to look at something on their PC, they will almost always zoom in for me to see. During meetings or presentations, I stand right up against the side of the TV or projector screen. At the risk of rambling on too much, I hope you find what works for you! Cheers
  • renaulth 8y ago
    Sorry, I forgot to mention you should watch this video by Abrar Sheikh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3WpnG49XLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3WpnG49XLc What he's achieved is quite impressive.
• sbfeibish 8y ago
  Read up on how blue light + retinal can knock out photoreceptor cells. Especially in your 50s and 60s. When your immune system goes downhill. You can reduce the amount of blue light on your smartphones and monitors.
• drallison 8y ago
  Check out the resources at http://benetech.org http://benetech.org for blind and vision impaired people. Benetech is located in Palo Alto, CA USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetech