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>It is kind of sad that we have this way of carving up the world into arbitrary pieces and calling us "us" and them "the enemy". It's not arbitrary, our ancest

>It is kind of sad that we have this way of carving up the world into arbitrary pieces and calling us "us" and them "the enemy". It's not arbitrary, our ancestors in many cases fought and died to establish those lines so that they could live their lives how they wanted within those lines. They worked hard so that their children and grandchildren and fellow citizens could have better lives within those lines. To discount that as luck is demeaning to the sacrifices of the people who came before you

rtpg 8y ago
The reality of these lines are usually less noble than you describe in many cases. As an example, if you read about the motivations of specific actors in the American revolutionary war, many of the top dissenters were basically interested in not paying taxes and being the boss of their own piece of land (instead of having oversight from across the pond). Nobody is ethically pure, of course, but the main push for the revolutionary war was done out of massive self-interest from people in power. "There was a time that we were noble" is something that rarely plays out in practice. Why should it? If anything humanity has gotten more, not less, ethical and noble over time. There's an idea of fighting for justice and truth, and then there's trying to die to establish lines on a map. They're not the same thing, and I'd say that it's rarely coinciding in practice
- beginningguava 8y ago
  I never said it was noble, but doing something in your own self-interest can still be positive. Even if the US revolution was for the founders financial benefit, the side effect was the spread of democracy and self-determination across the globe. They might just be "lines on a map" but they mean something to people, just 50 years ago those "lines" were the difference between living in a communist hellhole and freedom and prosperity. There's a lot of cubans and eastern europeans who risked their lives to get on the other side of some lines on a map and get a better life for themselves and their children. If people hadn't been willing to fight and die to defend those lines and their ability to live how they want, we wouldn't be able to have this discussion right now
- y4mi 8y ago
  thats absolutely true for america. he might've been from europe though, and we really did have ... a lot of blood wasted to draw out these lines... we kept killing each other for them
  - Ar-Curunir 8y ago
    That still isn't noble.
    - y4mi 8y ago
      depends on your definition of noble i guess. bloodshed and misery of the commons is a very ... 'noble' thing. by which i mean that every noble in europes history enjoyed it. i'd agree to the spirit of your message though, and the grandparent post probably as well. he probably didn't mean it like you interpreted it
Ar-Curunir 8y ago
In the USA's case it's more like "committed mass genocide to win land"... Doesn't sound so noble then, eh?
- everybodyknows 8y ago
  The historical reality check being that it's been a few hundred thousand years now since land was won in wholesale quantity by any other means, sabre-toothed cats having lost their place at the top of the food chain quite some time ago. Carthaginians, Celts, Bosnians, Tutsi, Rohingya ...
denzil_correa 8y ago
We do not have any influence on which side of the line we are born : that's purely luck.
- joey-bob 8y ago
  Do you exist before birth, in some other pool of souls?
  - EForEndeavour 8y ago
    The point is that the specific human body that ends up achieving self-awareness as me is determined entirely by chance.
- beginningguava 8y ago
  if you believe in genetics/evolution it's not luck. The smarter and stronger side wins. Is it luck that you weren't born as a squirrel or some other animal? My family members fought in wars, paid taxes, and helped build up the country so their descendants could have a better life, calling that nothing but luck is disrespectful to the sacrifices they made.
  - gmueckl 8y ago
    But you yourself did not have any control over where or when you were born. Even your parents' say in that matter was likely limited. Also, statistically, birthrates are higher in less developed countries with worse living conditions.
tao_oat 8y ago
> They worked hard so that their children and grandchildren and fellow citizens could have better lives within those lines That's sort of the whole point; often improving the lives of "fellow citizens" came at the expense of everyone else

rtpg 8y ago

The reality of these lines are usually less noble than you describe in many cases. As an example, if you read about the motivations of specific actors in the American revolutionary war, many of the top dissenters were basically interested in not paying taxes and being the boss of their own piece of land (instead of having oversight from across the pond). Nobody is ethically pure, of course, but the main push for the revolutionary war was done out of massive self-interest from people in power. "There was a time that we were noble" is something that rarely plays out in practice. Why should it? If anything humanity has gotten more, not less, ethical and noble over time. There's an idea of fighting for justice and truth, and then there's trying to die to establish lines on a map. They're not the same thing, and I'd say that it's rarely coinciding in practice

beginningguava 8y ago
I never said it was noble, but doing something in your own self-interest can still be positive. Even if the US revolution was for the founders financial benefit, the side effect was the spread of democracy and self-determination across the globe. They might just be "lines on a map" but they mean something to people, just 50 years ago those "lines" were the difference between living in a communist hellhole and freedom and prosperity. There's a lot of cubans and eastern europeans who risked their lives to get on the other side of some lines on a map and get a better life for themselves and their children. If people hadn't been willing to fight and die to defend those lines and their ability to live how they want, we wouldn't be able to have this discussion right now
y4mi 8y ago
thats absolutely true for america. he might've been from europe though, and we really did have ... a lot of blood wasted to draw out these lines... we kept killing each other for them
- Ar-Curunir 8y ago
  That still isn't noble.
  - y4mi 8y ago
    depends on your definition of noble i guess. bloodshed and misery of the commons is a very ... 'noble' thing. by which i mean that every noble in europes history enjoyed it. i'd agree to the spirit of your message though, and the grandparent post probably as well. he probably didn't mean it like you interpreted it

Ar-Curunir 8y ago

In the USA's case it's more like "committed mass genocide to win land"... Doesn't sound so noble then, eh?

everybodyknows 8y ago
The historical reality check being that it's been a few hundred thousand years now since land was won in wholesale quantity by any other means, sabre-toothed cats having lost their place at the top of the food chain quite some time ago. Carthaginians, Celts, Bosnians, Tutsi, Rohingya ...

denzil_correa 8y ago

We do not have any influence on which side of the line we are born : that's purely luck.

joey-bob 8y ago
Do you exist before birth, in some other pool of souls?
- EForEndeavour 8y ago
  The point is that the specific human body that ends up achieving self-awareness as me is determined entirely by chance.
beginningguava 8y ago
if you believe in genetics/evolution it's not luck. The smarter and stronger side wins. Is it luck that you weren't born as a squirrel or some other animal? My family members fought in wars, paid taxes, and helped build up the country so their descendants could have a better life, calling that nothing but luck is disrespectful to the sacrifices they made.
- gmueckl 8y ago
  But you yourself did not have any control over where or when you were born. Even your parents' say in that matter was likely limited. Also, statistically, birthrates are higher in less developed countries with worse living conditions.

tao_oat 8y ago

> They worked hard so that their children and grandchildren and fellow citizens could have better lives within those lines That's sort of the whole point; often improving the lives of "fellow citizens" came at the expense of everyone else