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The non-PC argument here is that diversity directly opposed to community, and I think there's some truth to it. If everyone in an area has lived there for thei

by rdl 8y ago

The non-PC argument here is that diversity directly opposed to community, and I think there's some truth to it. If everyone in an area has lived there for their entire lives, it doesn't really matter if it's apartment buildings, a small high-density European-style town, or suburbs. If the rate of migration in/out is low enough, newcomers assimilate, assuming the society is welcoming and they interact. There are lots of places where immigration (both within the US and internationally) is very high, and where people often only intend to live for a while for work, so there's not much in the way of community, and people don't make much of an investment in building institutions (beyond their immediate household and workplace). It's ok in technology or other well-connected professions (because I probably care more about my interactions online and at conferences with the ~200 or so security people from around the world that I closely follow, vs. anyone from my home town or where I've ever physically lived), but for anyone else, it probably sucks a lot. The only culture I've ever seen which seems to deal with that level of constant migration in anything approaching a functional way is the military, and there it's due to an overarching identity, lots of highly artificial forms of identity (the "unit", rivalries, etc.), and lots of traditions and institutions actively encouraged.

jgh 8y ago
> The non-PC argument If you want to have a reasonable discussion about these things, don't front-load your argument with labeling people who disagree with you in such broad, and frankly wrong, strokes.
- virmundi 8y ago
  Sadly we have to today. For example, I said that we shouldn't be forcing the idea that people should attend college. Rather we need to tell people to attend vocational schools to replace those who are retiring. I made the argument that the vocational schools will get you a good wage. You'll help the community. I was promptly down voted.
- ashleyn 8y ago
  "Non-PC" is often used as a dogwhistle to bring back white racial communities. I stop reading when such nationalism is even hinted at.
softwaredoug 8y ago
If this is true, I’d expect loneliness to be higher in diverse urban centers and lower in rural areas. Is this the case? Anecdotally I’ve notice the opposite... that diverse urban areas are less lonely and isolating.
- wenc 8y ago
  Yes. The stereotype of a big city is that it’s cold and impersonal (and it can be). On the other hand, it affords you more opportunity to meet people of like-mind. Loneliness can be pretty bad in rural areas if you don’t fit into the community.
- grawprog 8y ago
  Personally, I find life in my culturally diverse city lonelier than when I lived in a small rural town. If only because most people would say hi or smile even if you didn't know them as they walk past you. In the city you tend get glared at or even have people act open hostile as they walk by. People seem to be less open to random conversation or just meeting strangers in general. More people around doesn't always equal less loneliness.
  - wenc 8y ago
    > If only because most people would say hi or smile even if you didn't know them as they walk past you. Ooh, this is highly dependent on the city you live in, and the neighborhood you're in. I've visited many/lived in a few cities in the U.S. and Canada, and hi/smiles are actually not that uncommon, especially in the midwest, the south and in Canada. It depends on the context of course. No one will greet you on a busy street corner, or at rush hour. But if you're walking your dog, at a bus shelter, or casually strolling in a quieter neighborhood with low pedestrian traffic, your chances are higher. It's just human nature. Also, a great opportunity for human connection is just talking to cashiers, i.e. folks in retail that you come across. Surveys have shown that though these interactions are brief and fleeting, they can do a lot to alleviate loneliness.
    - grawprog 8y ago
carbocation 8y ago
> There are lots of places where immigration (both within the US and internationally) is very high, and where people often only intend to live for a while for work What you're describing doesn't really fit with the broader concept of immigration, which has more of a long-duration/permanent settlement aspect to it. But, I can certainly imagine that any place which is just a temporary destination for people would have a hard time becoming a real community.
- rdl 8y ago
  Transience and migration are probably a separate issue from immigration-from-lots-of-diverse-backgrounds, but you often get both together. The coastal/successful/etc. cities have these problems leading to lack of community; there are other parts of the US (and world, presumably) where it's just despair due to economic and social collapse. Not knowing/caring who my neighbors are in a big city, but we're all doing economically OK, is probably preferable to a town where everyone has been together for a long time but half of the people are unemployed, half are opiate addicts, and no one really has much hope for the future.
robinsloan 8y ago
Internal migration in the U.S. has fallen consistently since the 1980s; more people today live closer to where they were born than they did in previous decades. And in most places in the U.S. -- certainly, the places captured by this loneliness survey -- the number of brand-new migrants is tiny relative to that population of people who were born there.
Beefin 8y ago
While I do agree with your thought that transient communities are more lonely because they have no true community. I disagree in that I think diversity has powerful mechanisms that breeds unique experiences, which is arguably the universal joy of life.

by rdl 8y ago

jgh 8y ago

> The non-PC argument If you want to have a reasonable discussion about these things, don't front-load your argument with labeling people who disagree with you in such broad, and frankly wrong, strokes.

virmundi 8y ago
Sadly we have to today. For example, I said that we shouldn't be forcing the idea that people should attend college. Rather we need to tell people to attend vocational schools to replace those who are retiring. I made the argument that the vocational schools will get you a good wage. You'll help the community. I was promptly down voted.
ashleyn 8y ago
"Non-PC" is often used as a dogwhistle to bring back white racial communities. I stop reading when such nationalism is even hinted at.

softwaredoug 8y ago

If this is true, I’d expect loneliness to be higher in diverse urban centers and lower in rural areas. Is this the case? Anecdotally I’ve notice the opposite... that diverse urban areas are less lonely and isolating.

wenc 8y ago
Yes. The stereotype of a big city is that it’s cold and impersonal (and it can be). On the other hand, it affords you more opportunity to meet people of like-mind. Loneliness can be pretty bad in rural areas if you don’t fit into the community.
grawprog 8y ago
Personally, I find life in my culturally diverse city lonelier than when I lived in a small rural town. If only because most people would say hi or smile even if you didn't know them as they walk past you. In the city you tend get glared at or even have people act open hostile as they walk by. People seem to be less open to random conversation or just meeting strangers in general. More people around doesn't always equal less loneliness.
- wenc 8y ago
  > If only because most people would say hi or smile even if you didn't know them as they walk past you. Ooh, this is highly dependent on the city you live in, and the neighborhood you're in. I've visited many/lived in a few cities in the U.S. and Canada, and hi/smiles are actually not that uncommon, especially in the midwest, the south and in Canada. It depends on the context of course. No one will greet you on a busy street corner, or at rush hour. But if you're walking your dog, at a bus shelter, or casually strolling in a quieter neighborhood with low pedestrian traffic, your chances are higher. It's just human nature. Also, a great opportunity for human connection is just talking to cashiers, i.e. folks in retail that you come across. Surveys have shown that though these interactions are brief and fleeting, they can do a lot to alleviate loneliness.
  - grawprog 8y ago

carbocation 8y ago

> There are lots of places where immigration (both within the US and internationally) is very high, and where people often only intend to live for a while for work What you're describing doesn't really fit with the broader concept of immigration, which has more of a long-duration/permanent settlement aspect to it. But, I can certainly imagine that any place which is just a temporary destination for people would have a hard time becoming a real community.

rdl 8y ago
Transience and migration are probably a separate issue from immigration-from-lots-of-diverse-backgrounds, but you often get both together. The coastal/successful/etc. cities have these problems leading to lack of community; there are other parts of the US (and world, presumably) where it's just despair due to economic and social collapse. Not knowing/caring who my neighbors are in a big city, but we're all doing economically OK, is probably preferable to a town where everyone has been together for a long time but half of the people are unemployed, half are opiate addicts, and no one really has much hope for the future.

robinsloan 8y ago

Internal migration in the U.S. has fallen consistently since the 1980s; more people today live closer to where they were born than they did in previous decades. And in most places in the U.S. -- certainly, the places captured by this loneliness survey -- the number of brand-new migrants is tiny relative to that population of people who were born there.

Beefin 8y ago

While I do agree with your thought that transient communities are more lonely because they have no true community. I disagree in that I think diversity has powerful mechanisms that breeds unique experiences, which is arguably the universal joy of life.