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> Suburbs are structurally lonely My European perspective. I wouldn't blame it on suburbs in particular. I would blame most if not all forms of city living.

by clarry 8y ago

> Suburbs are structurally lonely My European perspective. I wouldn't blame it on suburbs in particular. I would blame most if not all forms of city living. Most people live in flats where nobody wants to have anything to do with their neighbor and there is no communality. People move in and move out, nobody cares. The less you have to hear of your neighbor, the better. FWIW I would rather have a 'burb castle than a flat where I have to smell and listen to idiots drink, smoke, fight and blast music. And I think I'd rather get to know the neighbors over at the adjoining castle than the scum in these neighboring flats. Now farms and other isolated & rural towns are a different deal. There you're no longer mass of people. You actually get to know the community around you, and people don't come & go nearly as much.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tezka 8y ago
Thats not particularly a European perspective. Sounds like its just yours.
- clarry 8y ago
  It is just mine, and I am European. I believe it is informative to spell it out in a discussion that points fingers at the (American) suburb.
  - tezka 8y ago
    your statement sounds like this is a point of view taken by the majority of people who live in Europe. Simple facts about the number and density of cities through out the history of the continent point to the exact opposite.
    - GavinMcG 8y ago
      And they already told you they didn't mean it that way. Maybe listen to them, adjust your expectations, and move on?
npunt 8y ago
Yeah I think it’s not just a suburb problem, they just so happen to be (I think) the most common living situation for Americans. And if not in actuality, certainly culturally we are indoctrinated in a suburb mindset (own a home, go to college, American dream yada yada). It’s one of the reasons moving to a city after college is so exciting for us- it’s usually the first experience we have that challenges that mindset.
madengr 8y ago
You nailed it. I live in a ‘burb castle’. I was grateful to get out of my apartment. The woman in the adjacent unit would burn a dozen candles and stumble in drunk every night. The guy below would scream and break stuff during football games. Another would blast rap music at 4 AM. Screw apartments. Now I can put up ham radio antennas, have a nice lab, garage for bike, etc.. I could not fathom living in a dense city.
JackFr 8y ago
> And I think I'd rather get to know the neighbors over at the adjoining castle than the scum in these neighboring flats. Don’t worry — I’m sure the scum feel pretty much the same about you.
- black-tea 8y ago
  The language might seem harsh to you, but you'd understand it if you'd ever lived with or near such people.
  - harrumph 8y ago
    >The language might seem harsh to you, but you'd understand it if you'd ever lived with or near such people. I understand it perfectly well, I've lived in densely populated cities my whole life. It's a naked display of something called misanthropy and it's a core tenet of an ethos of self-obsession plus empathy absence that persons in technology AND lifelong US suburbanites far, far too often are afflicted with. Zero mystery here.
    - blueprint 8y ago
      Then what is its root cause?
      - xtian 8y ago
        Typically our view of the outer world is a reflection of our view of the inner world, and usually that state is obscured and perpetuated by fear/clinging to an idea of security.
      - harrumph 8y ago
        >Then what is its root cause? I can only guess. I'll be thinking about it. I will say that fear -- useful fear, wielded as a whip of control in various ways -- is central to any process of de-socialization. And I know who surely has the greatest interest in de-socialization: the persons at the top of our economy.
fjsolwmv 8y ago
The reason your city is so bad is in large epart because the families move away to suburbs. In the burbs, you still get disturbances like constant lawnmowers and leaf blowers, at least in lawn-crazy USA.
- sgt101 8y ago
  Also planning laws - apartments for singles and couples are cheaper to build and higher density than apartments for families. If planning law mandates sufficient accommodation for families the dynamics change.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- clarry 8y ago
  The constant lawnmowers get on my nerves for sure. But even the families with loud kids and dogs and late night backyard parties never managed to disturb me as much as what I've come to expect as the norm in flats.
- tivert 8y ago
  > The reason your city is so bad is in large epart because the families move away to suburbs. In the burbs, you still get disturbances like constant lawnmowers and leaf blowers, at least in lawn-crazy USA. In the USA a lot of neighborly socialization is associated with yard work. The lawnmower is a signal your neighbor is out, and the polite thing to do is to chat when you run into each other. That's how I got to know my neighbors. If you weren't aware, you do shut off the machines when you talk. The level of contempt you show for lawn work makes me thing you have little experience with it or some idiosyncrasies that cause you to hate it in an atypical way.
tnecniv 8y ago
But cities provide you with a means to find a community if you really want one. It's a lot harder and/or less convenient to find groups that do what you like to do if you live in a suburb.
- tivert 8y ago
  > But cities provide you with a means to find a community if you really want one. It's a lot harder and/or less convenient to find groups that do what you like to do if you live in a suburb. I think there's a problem with equating community with "groups that do what you like." That sounds like a definition that's been infected by the "personalization" the npunt was talking about in his first note. Real communities have a lot more diversity than that, and they're usually not very personalized. It's often no so much about finding community, but forming communal bonds with the people already around you.
  - RealityVoid 8y ago
    Why would it be bad if things were this way? I mean, I have a very varied social circle but enjoy the company of a select few the most. "Personalization" as you called it, has existed since immemorial times and I don't think it's something new.
    - Faark 8y ago
      Sure, it always existed and isn't necessarily always a problem. But, as with anything, it can quickly become a problem once we get better at it and turn it to eleven. Last century, forming a sect was hard work. Now this kinda seems to happen accidentally all the time when someone tries to launch a new social media platform. For those examples the problem isn't preferring a select few, but shielding yourself from others. But yes, favoring select few can end bad as well. When you network with and thus effectively give positions or contracts to only your select few, you can end up with a self-reinforcing feedback loop and thus quite homogeneous subset of people. And then end up with e.g. woman complain they cannot obtain senior positions or more frequent conspiracy theories about how jews run the world. Having lots of people think they are treated unfairly is generally bad for a society, especially our democratic ones.
JansjoFromIkea 8y ago
I dunno about that, having grown up in a rural area I can distinctly remember newcomers to the area (especially if from abroad) never being accepted unless they had young kids going to the local school (who would be accepted by the other kids much faster). There was one couple who tried extensively for years going to and organising events but never became anything more than "the dutch couple" You also get a lot of weirdness where everyone knows a bit too much about everyone else. ...and, yeah, there's a really strong push towards conformity. If you're at all unusual it's pretty isolating. Some people will help you if you're in trouble but you'll never make anything resembling friendships. If you grow up in the community, your direct family are pretty accepted within it, and there are other people within your age range, it's highly unlikely to be a lonely experience. in my case we had two neighbours that got married around the same time as my parents but neither could conceive, which both resulted in no other kids in the area at all and a kind of strained awkwardness between them and my parents

by clarry 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

tezka 8y ago

Thats not particularly a European perspective. Sounds like its just yours.

clarry 8y ago
It is just mine, and I am European. I believe it is informative to spell it out in a discussion that points fingers at the (American) suburb.
- tezka 8y ago
  your statement sounds like this is a point of view taken by the majority of people who live in Europe. Simple facts about the number and density of cities through out the history of the continent point to the exact opposite.
  - GavinMcG 8y ago
    And they already told you they didn't mean it that way. Maybe listen to them, adjust your expectations, and move on?

npunt 8y ago

Yeah I think it’s not just a suburb problem, they just so happen to be (I think) the most common living situation for Americans. And if not in actuality, certainly culturally we are indoctrinated in a suburb mindset (own a home, go to college, American dream yada yada). It’s one of the reasons moving to a city after college is so exciting for us- it’s usually the first experience we have that challenges that mindset.

madengr 8y ago

You nailed it. I live in a ‘burb castle’. I was grateful to get out of my apartment. The woman in the adjacent unit would burn a dozen candles and stumble in drunk every night. The guy below would scream and break stuff during football games. Another would blast rap music at 4 AM. Screw apartments. Now I can put up ham radio antennas, have a nice lab, garage for bike, etc.. I could not fathom living in a dense city.

JackFr 8y ago

> And I think I'd rather get to know the neighbors over at the adjoining castle than the scum in these neighboring flats. Don’t worry — I’m sure the scum feel pretty much the same about you.

black-tea 8y ago
The language might seem harsh to you, but you'd understand it if you'd ever lived with or near such people.
- harrumph 8y ago
  >The language might seem harsh to you, but you'd understand it if you'd ever lived with or near such people. I understand it perfectly well, I've lived in densely populated cities my whole life. It's a naked display of something called misanthropy and it's a core tenet of an ethos of self-obsession plus empathy absence that persons in technology AND lifelong US suburbanites far, far too often are afflicted with. Zero mystery here.
  - blueprint 8y ago
    Then what is its root cause?
    - xtian 8y ago
      Typically our view of the outer world is a reflection of our view of the inner world, and usually that state is obscured and perpetuated by fear/clinging to an idea of security.
    - harrumph 8y ago
      >Then what is its root cause? I can only guess. I'll be thinking about it. I will say that fear -- useful fear, wielded as a whip of control in various ways -- is central to any process of de-socialization. And I know who surely has the greatest interest in de-socialization: the persons at the top of our economy.

fjsolwmv 8y ago

The reason your city is so bad is in large epart because the families move away to suburbs. In the burbs, you still get disturbances like constant lawnmowers and leaf blowers, at least in lawn-crazy USA.

sgt101 8y ago
Also planning laws - apartments for singles and couples are cheaper to build and higher density than apartments for families. If planning law mandates sufficient accommodation for families the dynamics change.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
clarry 8y ago
The constant lawnmowers get on my nerves for sure. But even the families with loud kids and dogs and late night backyard parties never managed to disturb me as much as what I've come to expect as the norm in flats.
tivert 8y ago
> The reason your city is so bad is in large epart because the families move away to suburbs. In the burbs, you still get disturbances like constant lawnmowers and leaf blowers, at least in lawn-crazy USA. In the USA a lot of neighborly socialization is associated with yard work. The lawnmower is a signal your neighbor is out, and the polite thing to do is to chat when you run into each other. That's how I got to know my neighbors. If you weren't aware, you do shut off the machines when you talk. The level of contempt you show for lawn work makes me thing you have little experience with it or some idiosyncrasies that cause you to hate it in an atypical way.

tnecniv 8y ago

But cities provide you with a means to find a community if you really want one. It's a lot harder and/or less convenient to find groups that do what you like to do if you live in a suburb.

tivert 8y ago
> But cities provide you with a means to find a community if you really want one. It's a lot harder and/or less convenient to find groups that do what you like to do if you live in a suburb. I think there's a problem with equating community with "groups that do what you like." That sounds like a definition that's been infected by the "personalization" the npunt was talking about in his first note. Real communities have a lot more diversity than that, and they're usually not very personalized. It's often no so much about finding community, but forming communal bonds with the people already around you.
- RealityVoid 8y ago
  Why would it be bad if things were this way? I mean, I have a very varied social circle but enjoy the company of a select few the most. "Personalization" as you called it, has existed since immemorial times and I don't think it's something new.
  - Faark 8y ago
    Sure, it always existed and isn't necessarily always a problem. But, as with anything, it can quickly become a problem once we get better at it and turn it to eleven. Last century, forming a sect was hard work. Now this kinda seems to happen accidentally all the time when someone tries to launch a new social media platform. For those examples the problem isn't preferring a select few, but shielding yourself from others. But yes, favoring select few can end bad as well. When you network with and thus effectively give positions or contracts to only your select few, you can end up with a self-reinforcing feedback loop and thus quite homogeneous subset of people. And then end up with e.g. woman complain they cannot obtain senior positions or more frequent conspiracy theories about how jews run the world. Having lots of people think they are treated unfairly is generally bad for a society, especially our democratic ones.

JansjoFromIkea 8y ago

I dunno about that, having grown up in a rural area I can distinctly remember newcomers to the area (especially if from abroad) never being accepted unless they had young kids going to the local school (who would be accepted by the other kids much faster). There was one couple who tried extensively for years going to and organising events but never became anything more than "the dutch couple" You also get a lot of weirdness where everyone knows a bit too much about everyone else. ...and, yeah, there's a really strong push towards conformity. If you're at all unusual it's pretty isolating. Some people will help you if you're in trouble but you'll never make anything resembling friendships. If you grow up in the community, your direct family are pretty accepted within it, and there are other people within your age range, it's highly unlikely to be a lonely experience. in my case we had two neighbours that got married around the same time as my parents but neither could conceive, which both resulted in no other kids in the area at all and a kind of strained awkwardness between them and my parents