4 ms·

Even then that salary is nothing to sneeze at for a head of state. I believe Angela Merkel makes ~300k EUR in salary.

onetimemanytime 8y ago
I agree, but the 3rd world countries would save a fortune if they paid their top leader $1Million a year and $100K to ministers provided they don't steal. Road costs $1.2 Billion? $200 MILLION to me, make the road a little narrower and pour x cm less asphalt. Buying and selling electricity? 20% to the leader. They are shameless and they know how to keep power, they let those downstream wet their beak too. But ultimately they know that they have to have clean cash. I make $600K and spend just $50k a year so $550K is invested year after year. No matter what, I can keep the $xx that derived from that. The stolen money is in secret accounts, companies, in other people's names etc. Not always easy to get a hold or keep the state away.
- jlg23 8y ago
  Not sure whether I prefer your description or the more elaborate scheme of "Road costs $1.2Billion? Have my brother-in-law build it and my cousin will build you a house for almost free on land you can buy for really cheap from a childhood friend of mine!" It's not that the 1st world is less corrupt, it's just that some schemes are more evolved.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    Nope, the real money is with %. States, even poorer one have billion dollar budgets. But even the favorite contractors, after dividing the money as per instructions, have to spend money on reelecting Dear Leader. They established autocracies get complacent and sloppy and don't care to launder the money. Who's gonna check? A smart way would be to bill for consulting /subcontracting work and pay taxes on that
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    If you honestly think that the first world is no less corrupt you need to travel more. Switzerland is very different from Turkey, and Turkey’s very different from Eritrea.
    - jlg23 8y ago
      I will try to do that, in between my permanent traveling that I have been doing for a few years now. Any hints who might provide a more correct picture than the employees of UN, GIZ, Red Cross, Medicines sans Frontieres etc give over and over again? Try to find a normal priced taxi as a white person in Haiti: 5 minute drive = $100. Or "You give me $150, I give you a receipt over $300." This scam was brought to you by... drumroll the UN! (It's a nice way to make one or two additional salaries while on an "educational visit").
      - barry-cotter 8y ago
        Forgive me for assuming someone with such odd views could only have come by them through lack of experience. Obviously highly biased experience works just as well. Opportunity makes thieves, as the Germans say. You’re using an organisation with close to zero effective oversight, that is without exaggeration a law to itself, and which for political reasons has many staff from really corrupt countries as an example of corruption. The UN is not clean and no one who knows anything about it thinks it’s clean. For similar reasons aid organisations are also not paragons of probity. They work in poor, corrupt countries and they have access to both budgets and people who are willing and eager to get some of that money by helping them defraud their employers. What does this prove about corruption in more developed countries? Either very little or that systems are important. In Sweden your political career can end for putting hundreds of dollars of private expenses on a ministerial card. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-11-11-9511110090-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-11-11-951111... In Ireland you can die rich through corruption after having been prime minister, never having been charged with anything. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/20/ireland https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/20/ireland And petty corruption in either country is much less than anything aid workers deal with regularly, basically absent. Living in China has made me far more cynical and accepting of the fact that corruption happens all the time but I know perfectly well that petty corruption is very limited in Ireland, my home country. Interference in civil service exams or school leaving exams is unremarkable in China and would bring down a government in Ireland. The difference in corruption between developed, developing and undeveloped countries is so large that it’s not just a difference in quantity but in kind.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  Personally, I think $200 MILLION and the loss of your job is better than $1 million per year. I don't see how the savings you envision materialize under the circumstances you describe.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    Yeah, I was making an extreme case. Not applicable to third world countries BUT established demos should pay millions to top leaders. Would USA feel a $200 million budget hit if they paid their top 500 leaders more? NOPE. It's nothing, and probably costs less since a US Senator that gets a subsidized apartment slips something in a bill favoring his benefactor. (US should also build dorms for US Congress /Senate people and charge them for maintenance, say $300 a month. Pretty sure people /foundations would donate so the building would be built for free and the govt has land)
    - thecleaner 8y ago
      I think it does make a difference. Point is making market salaries the norm of everybody eventually makes more talented people come into the system hence this sort of thing would be much more difficult to pull off because there are other good people policing the system. Sso I guess its worth a shot if possible.
- rdl 8y ago
  Singapore is the jurisdiction (not third world, obviously) which is famous for paying "market" salaries to leaders. From everything I've seen/read, they get value for money. Presidential salary is about USD 3.5mm/yr. PM is similar, and other ministers are about half that, and there's variable performance-based pay as part of it.

I agree, but the 3rd world countries would save a fortune if they paid their top leader $1Million a year and $100K to ministers provided they don't steal. Road costs $1.2 Billion? $200 MILLION to me, make the road a little narrower and pour x cm less asphalt. Buying and selling electricity? 20% to the leader. They are shameless and they know how to keep power, they let those downstream wet their beak too. But ultimately they know that they have to have clean cash. I make $600K and spend just $50k a year so $550K is invested year after year. No matter what, I can keep the $xx that derived from that. The stolen money is in secret accounts, companies, in other people's names etc. Not always easy to get a hold or keep the state away.

jlg23 8y ago
Not sure whether I prefer your description or the more elaborate scheme of "Road costs $1.2Billion? Have my brother-in-law build it and my cousin will build you a house for almost free on land you can buy for really cheap from a childhood friend of mine!" It's not that the 1st world is less corrupt, it's just that some schemes are more evolved.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  Nope, the real money is with %. States, even poorer one have billion dollar budgets. But even the favorite contractors, after dividing the money as per instructions, have to spend money on reelecting Dear Leader. They established autocracies get complacent and sloppy and don't care to launder the money. Who's gonna check? A smart way would be to bill for consulting /subcontracting work and pay taxes on that
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  If you honestly think that the first world is no less corrupt you need to travel more. Switzerland is very different from Turkey, and Turkey’s very different from Eritrea.
  - jlg23 8y ago
    I will try to do that, in between my permanent traveling that I have been doing for a few years now. Any hints who might provide a more correct picture than the employees of UN, GIZ, Red Cross, Medicines sans Frontieres etc give over and over again? Try to find a normal priced taxi as a white person in Haiti: 5 minute drive = $100. Or "You give me $150, I give you a receipt over $300." This scam was brought to you by... drumroll the UN! (It's a nice way to make one or two additional salaries while on an "educational visit").
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      Forgive me for assuming someone with such odd views could only have come by them through lack of experience. Obviously highly biased experience works just as well. Opportunity makes thieves, as the Germans say. You’re using an organisation with close to zero effective oversight, that is without exaggeration a law to itself, and which for political reasons has many staff from really corrupt countries as an example of corruption. The UN is not clean and no one who knows anything about it thinks it’s clean. For similar reasons aid organisations are also not paragons of probity. They work in poor, corrupt countries and they have access to both budgets and people who are willing and eager to get some of that money by helping them defraud their employers. What does this prove about corruption in more developed countries? Either very little or that systems are important. In Sweden your political career can end for putting hundreds of dollars of private expenses on a ministerial card. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-11-11-9511110090-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-11-11-951111... In Ireland you can die rich through corruption after having been prime minister, never having been charged with anything. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/20/ireland https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/20/ireland And petty corruption in either country is much less than anything aid workers deal with regularly, basically absent. Living in China has made me far more cynical and accepting of the fact that corruption happens all the time but I know perfectly well that petty corruption is very limited in Ireland, my home country. Interference in civil service exams or school leaving exams is unremarkable in China and would bring down a government in Ireland. The difference in corruption between developed, developing and undeveloped countries is so large that it’s not just a difference in quantity but in kind.
thaumasiotes 8y ago
Personally, I think $200 MILLION and the loss of your job is better than $1 million per year. I don't see how the savings you envision materialize under the circumstances you describe.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  Yeah, I was making an extreme case. Not applicable to third world countries BUT established demos should pay millions to top leaders. Would USA feel a $200 million budget hit if they paid their top 500 leaders more? NOPE. It's nothing, and probably costs less since a US Senator that gets a subsidized apartment slips something in a bill favoring his benefactor. (US should also build dorms for US Congress /Senate people and charge them for maintenance, say $300 a month. Pretty sure people /foundations would donate so the building would be built for free and the govt has land)
  - thecleaner 8y ago
    I think it does make a difference. Point is making market salaries the norm of everybody eventually makes more talented people come into the system hence this sort of thing would be much more difficult to pull off because there are other good people policing the system. Sso I guess its worth a shot if possible.
rdl 8y ago
Singapore is the jurisdiction (not third world, obviously) which is famous for paying "market" salaries to leaders. From everything I've seen/read, they get value for money. Presidential salary is about USD 3.5mm/yr. PM is similar, and other ministers are about half that, and there's variable performance-based pay as part of it.