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I don't get how they go from saying poor rural folk that struggle to survive commit suicide more often and then conclude from it that gun control is a solution

I don't get how they go from saying poor rural folk that struggle to survive commit suicide more often and then conclude from it that gun control is a solution to that problem. That isn't treating the source of the problem at all. Guns didn't make these people poor and desperate. I would expect any marginalized and poor group of people to have higher rates of suicide than normal regardless of their access to dangerous tools or chemicals.

shawn 8y ago
Prozac. It works. Most rural folk don’t necessarily have access to quality health care. (I was one of those rural folk at one time.) People say work out, it will cure all of your problems. That may be true. But it wasn’t until I took Prozac every day for a solid month that I noticed a real improvement. Now I’m in a position where working out is a possibility, whereas it wasn’t before. I’m not saying it’s a miracle pill or that it will work for everybody or that it won’t cause problems. I don’t know any of those things. All I know is that it was a miracle pill for me and doesn’t seem to cause any problems. It’s like wearing a prosthetic leg. You don’t really realize how much of a struggle you’ve been dealing with until you put it on. The trick is that you have to wear it every day for a month before it works at all.
jackvalentine 8y ago
Successful suicide is a function of desire and access to means. You can work on either, or both at the same time.
- anonytrary 8y ago
  Desire and access to means are not orthogonal. As desire increases, effective access to means increases. Anything can become a weapon if you're desperate enough.
  - jackvalentine 8y ago
    That’s true. But it’s also true that people with access to more effective methods are successful more often.
    - anonytrary 8y ago
      Indeed, because the barrier becomes lower. It's common in interaction design to purposefully guard a certain action with more clicks/steps in order to reduce the likelihood of the action being overused or abused. It appears to work for websites, for example HN makes you click the timestamp if you want to flag a comment, which likely deters knee-jerk flags.
      - jackvalentine 8y ago
        Yeah good example. I don't think we're saying anything particularly groundbreaking here.
        anonytrary 8y ago
        If internet forums were meant for only the groundbreaking, they would be barren places, no?
        jackvalentine 8y ago
        I say it because I was surprised at the offense some people took to the idea!
- b1r6 8y ago
  What do we say to the people who we takes the means from? "We don't trust you with these tools?". I personally find such control very insulting. At the same time, I respect their desire if it's well thought-out.
  - jackvalentine 8y ago
    I don't know. I'm not suggesting any course of action.
- vpmpaul 8y ago
  Comments like this make me sigh at the gulf of brilliance and borderline mental disability of HN. Literally every single person contemplating suicide has access to means. Every single one. No matter how much regulation is imposed which is why it is stupid to attempt to regulate to begin with and usually used as a means to push a secondary agenda. Even someone strapped to a bed and force fed will eventually die from the process. The only cure for suicide it access to mental health assistance and reasonable living conditions. Even that won't "cure" someone who truly wants to die.
  - jackvalentine 8y ago
    I love how you've assumed from my comment a large range of 'secondary agendas' rather than just the face value of my words. Also I very much appreciate your bad-faith implication that I have a mental disability. Thanks for that.
    - dang 8y ago
      Please don't get uncivil, just because someone else wrote an uncharitable comment. It only makes the thread worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dang 8y ago
    Please keep name-calling out of your comments here, as the site guidelines request: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Remember this one too: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
  - anonytrary 8y ago
    > ...every single person contemplating suicide has access to means... No matter how much regulation is imposed... Your comment might get hidden because it was flagged, but your points need to be addressed. Suicide contemplation is a function of desire, so restricting access to means may help deter some of the people who have a weaker desire to commit suicide. > The only cure for suicide it access to mental health assistance and reasonable living conditions. Even that won't "cure" someone who truly wants to die. This may be the best long term "solution" to suicide. The fundamental problem isn't that people are killing themselves, it's that people want to be dead. It seems unscalable to try and "solve" the problem by banning every conceivable thing that could be used as a weapon. That doesn't solve the problem any more than spraying green paint on diseased grass fixes your yard; it is a superficial fix. Society should be measured not only by its economic output, but also by the percentage of people who would rather be dead than live in it. You can't conclude if a monkey has patience if you don't give it access to a banana. Only when the monkey has access to the banana and refuses it, can you conclude that the monkey has learned patience.
alangpierce 8y ago
> That isn't treating the source of the problem at all. In an ideal world, all problems could be fixed at their source, but in practice, we shouldn't limit ourselves to only solutions that target the source of the problem. As a much simpler example, it's common and pragmatic to take painkillers to treat headaches, even though they certainly don't make any attempt at fixing the source of the headache. Gun control (and other forms of means restriction) is effective at preventing suicides. It's not a satisfying solution (after all, the people it saves are still miserable), but it works, as indicated by many studies. That doesn't mean we shouldn't dig into why people want to kill themselves and try to fix those (like with mental health treatment or more proactively helping people maintain financial or social stability); I think we should probably take both approaches simultaneously.
- b1r6 8y ago
  As someone who thinks suicide is an unalienable human right, I find it insulting that someone may wish to take my guns, in order to stimy any attempt I may make at committing suicide. I am certain this is a minority view.
  - sahil-kang 8y ago
    That’s an interesting opinion I’ve never heard before: suicide as an inalienable right. For clarity, you’re not referring to euthanasia by any chance, are you? If not, can you elaborate on why suicide is or should be an inalienable right? From my understanding, people with mental health issues may be more likely to consider suicide. So my opinion is that suicide should be considered a symptom of an illness that needs medical attention as opposed to an inalienable right like free speech.
    - jackvalentine 8y ago
      It's interesting to consider. I'm inclined to agree with b1r6 and would say that autonomy over one's life is only complete if you also have the right to end it. That said, I do also agree that in some cases, not all, suicide is a symptom of an illness. I think the way of reconciling these two positions is to make mental healthcare ubiquitous with low barriers to access - and help people to get in to care earlier before things escalate. Additionally, our national policies should seek to minimize the number of 'dead ends' in people's lives without opportunity to move forward or upward.
DanBC 8y ago
If you have a group that attempts suicide more often you'll want to make suicide attempts more survivable - this is in addition to all the other work you're doing. Reducing access to means and methods is known to work to reduce the numbers of people who die by suicide.

shawn 8y ago

Prozac. It works. Most rural folk don’t necessarily have access to quality health care. (I was one of those rural folk at one time.) People say work out, it will cure all of your problems. That may be true. But it wasn’t until I took Prozac every day for a solid month that I noticed a real improvement. Now I’m in a position where working out is a possibility, whereas it wasn’t before. I’m not saying it’s a miracle pill or that it will work for everybody or that it won’t cause problems. I don’t know any of those things. All I know is that it was a miracle pill for me and doesn’t seem to cause any problems. It’s like wearing a prosthetic leg. You don’t really realize how much of a struggle you’ve been dealing with until you put it on. The trick is that you have to wear it every day for a month before it works at all.

jackvalentine 8y ago

Successful suicide is a function of desire and access to means. You can work on either, or both at the same time.

anonytrary 8y ago
Desire and access to means are not orthogonal. As desire increases, effective access to means increases. Anything can become a weapon if you're desperate enough.
- jackvalentine 8y ago
  That’s true. But it’s also true that people with access to more effective methods are successful more often.
  - anonytrary 8y ago
    Indeed, because the barrier becomes lower. It's common in interaction design to purposefully guard a certain action with more clicks/steps in order to reduce the likelihood of the action being overused or abused. It appears to work for websites, for example HN makes you click the timestamp if you want to flag a comment, which likely deters knee-jerk flags.
    - jackvalentine 8y ago
      Yeah good example. I don't think we're saying anything particularly groundbreaking here.
      - anonytrary 8y ago
        If internet forums were meant for only the groundbreaking, they would be barren places, no?
        jackvalentine 8y ago
        I say it because I was surprised at the offense some people took to the idea!
b1r6 8y ago
What do we say to the people who we takes the means from? "We don't trust you with these tools?". I personally find such control very insulting. At the same time, I respect their desire if it's well thought-out.
- jackvalentine 8y ago
  I don't know. I'm not suggesting any course of action.
vpmpaul 8y ago
Comments like this make me sigh at the gulf of brilliance and borderline mental disability of HN. Literally every single person contemplating suicide has access to means. Every single one. No matter how much regulation is imposed which is why it is stupid to attempt to regulate to begin with and usually used as a means to push a secondary agenda. Even someone strapped to a bed and force fed will eventually die from the process. The only cure for suicide it access to mental health assistance and reasonable living conditions. Even that won't "cure" someone who truly wants to die.
- jackvalentine 8y ago
  I love how you've assumed from my comment a large range of 'secondary agendas' rather than just the face value of my words. Also I very much appreciate your bad-faith implication that I have a mental disability. Thanks for that.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't get uncivil, just because someone else wrote an uncharitable comment. It only makes the thread worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 8y ago
  Please keep name-calling out of your comments here, as the site guidelines request: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Remember this one too: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
- anonytrary 8y ago
  > ...every single person contemplating suicide has access to means... No matter how much regulation is imposed... Your comment might get hidden because it was flagged, but your points need to be addressed. Suicide contemplation is a function of desire, so restricting access to means may help deter some of the people who have a weaker desire to commit suicide. > The only cure for suicide it access to mental health assistance and reasonable living conditions. Even that won't "cure" someone who truly wants to die. This may be the best long term "solution" to suicide. The fundamental problem isn't that people are killing themselves, it's that people want to be dead. It seems unscalable to try and "solve" the problem by banning every conceivable thing that could be used as a weapon. That doesn't solve the problem any more than spraying green paint on diseased grass fixes your yard; it is a superficial fix. Society should be measured not only by its economic output, but also by the percentage of people who would rather be dead than live in it. You can't conclude if a monkey has patience if you don't give it access to a banana. Only when the monkey has access to the banana and refuses it, can you conclude that the monkey has learned patience.

alangpierce 8y ago

> That isn't treating the source of the problem at all. In an ideal world, all problems could be fixed at their source, but in practice, we shouldn't limit ourselves to only solutions that target the source of the problem. As a much simpler example, it's common and pragmatic to take painkillers to treat headaches, even though they certainly don't make any attempt at fixing the source of the headache. Gun control (and other forms of means restriction) is effective at preventing suicides. It's not a satisfying solution (after all, the people it saves are still miserable), but it works, as indicated by many studies. That doesn't mean we shouldn't dig into why people want to kill themselves and try to fix those (like with mental health treatment or more proactively helping people maintain financial or social stability); I think we should probably take both approaches simultaneously.

b1r6 8y ago
As someone who thinks suicide is an unalienable human right, I find it insulting that someone may wish to take my guns, in order to stimy any attempt I may make at committing suicide. I am certain this is a minority view.
- sahil-kang 8y ago
  That’s an interesting opinion I’ve never heard before: suicide as an inalienable right. For clarity, you’re not referring to euthanasia by any chance, are you? If not, can you elaborate on why suicide is or should be an inalienable right? From my understanding, people with mental health issues may be more likely to consider suicide. So my opinion is that suicide should be considered a symptom of an illness that needs medical attention as opposed to an inalienable right like free speech.
  - jackvalentine 8y ago
    It's interesting to consider. I'm inclined to agree with b1r6 and would say that autonomy over one's life is only complete if you also have the right to end it. That said, I do also agree that in some cases, not all, suicide is a symptom of an illness. I think the way of reconciling these two positions is to make mental healthcare ubiquitous with low barriers to access - and help people to get in to care earlier before things escalate. Additionally, our national policies should seek to minimize the number of 'dead ends' in people's lives without opportunity to move forward or upward.

DanBC 8y ago

If you have a group that attempts suicide more often you'll want to make suicide attempts more survivable - this is in addition to all the other work you're doing. Reducing access to means and methods is known to work to reduce the numbers of people who die by suicide.