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> Is there a point where we collectively step back and acknowledge the great gains women have had in society; so great that they now have a very real advantage

> Is there a point where we collectively step back and acknowledge the great gains women have had in society; so great that they now have a very real advantage over men? What evidence do you have to support this? Women are still underpaid compared to their male counterparts for doing the exact same work, which SCOTUS recently ruled was perfectly legal. Women are still underrepresented in managerial and executive roles across the Fortune 500 and beyond, and have only begun making real gains in high-level US gov positions. How exactly is the increasing rate of women in university contributing to the problem of poorly-educated white men committing suicide at a higher rate?

malvosenior 8y ago
> What evidence do you have to support this? This article is about how male suicide is on the rise in the US. That is evidence. I also linked to male incarceration rates vs. female. > Women are still underpaid compared to their male counterparts for doing the exact same work This is simply not true and I challenge you to provide data to back up this assertion. https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy... > How exactly is the increasing rate of women in university contributing to the problem of poorly-educated white men committing suicide at a higher rate? Do you think they are totally unconnected? Is it not worth examining? Do you think male suicide and incarceration rates are even a problem worth looking into?
- krapp 8y ago
  >This article is about how male suicide is on the rise in the US. That is evidence. This article is about how suicide among various groups is falling, and it mentions as a counterpoint the rise in suicides by "white, middle-aged, poorly educated men in areas that were left behind by booms and crushed by busts". Nowhere in the article is it implied that male suicide is on the rise in the US as a result of the power women have over men in society. For that matter, you haven't proven that the increase in proportional incarcerations of males versus females is due to the power women have over men in society (vis a vis, I assume, the legal system) either, rather than men committing more crimes than women. If you're going to challenge others to back up their assertions at least back up your own.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    I'm saying that men don't have a very good place in US society as evidenced by suicide, lack of university enrollment and incarceration. At no point did I suggest that women have power over men. I see the problem as women's issues are being dealt with (often at the expense of men) while men's issues are a taboo that you can't even speak about. I'll use the voting performance of comments in this thread as further evidence that you can't even suggest that men might be in trouble without meeting great resistance.
    - krapp 8y ago
      >I'm saying that men don't have a very good place in US society as evidenced by suicide, lack of university enrollment and incarceration. >. At no point did I suggest that women have power over men. "Is there a point where we collectively step back and acknowledge the great gains women have had in society; so great that they now have a very real advantage over men?"
      - malvosenior 8y ago
        Is that a question (yes question -- not assertion) that you don't think is worth asking?
twimbly 8y ago
Why is the supposed pay gap the only metric used to define and quanitify a supposed concept of equality and egalitarian status? It's a bit one-dimensional when there are many profoundly complex aspects to industrialized civilization. There are also profound differences in the potential for life paths, between men and women, which cannot be scored like points on a plotted graph. Do you need someone to enumerate all the bold and clear differences between men and women for you?
yesenadam 8y ago
I would have agreed with you, but after having seen the documentary The Red Pill (2016), I'm more sympathetic to the GP. I think it's difficult for the people on the progressive/women's/feminist side of the debate (in which I included myself) to even listen to the "men's" side - it's a complex of interconnected issues. But I think that documentary at least might be a good starting point for discussion. I found it fascinating, and a very important film. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/ Edit: Maybe downvoters might like to say why. Thanks.

malvosenior 8y ago

> What evidence do you have to support this? This article is about how male suicide is on the rise in the US. That is evidence. I also linked to male incarceration rates vs. female. > Women are still underpaid compared to their male counterparts for doing the exact same work This is simply not true and I challenge you to provide data to back up this assertion. https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy... > How exactly is the increasing rate of women in university contributing to the problem of poorly-educated white men committing suicide at a higher rate? Do you think they are totally unconnected? Is it not worth examining? Do you think male suicide and incarceration rates are even a problem worth looking into?

krapp 8y ago
>This article is about how male suicide is on the rise in the US. That is evidence. This article is about how suicide among various groups is falling, and it mentions as a counterpoint the rise in suicides by "white, middle-aged, poorly educated men in areas that were left behind by booms and crushed by busts". Nowhere in the article is it implied that male suicide is on the rise in the US as a result of the power women have over men in society. For that matter, you haven't proven that the increase in proportional incarcerations of males versus females is due to the power women have over men in society (vis a vis, I assume, the legal system) either, rather than men committing more crimes than women. If you're going to challenge others to back up their assertions at least back up your own.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  I'm saying that men don't have a very good place in US society as evidenced by suicide, lack of university enrollment and incarceration. At no point did I suggest that women have power over men. I see the problem as women's issues are being dealt with (often at the expense of men) while men's issues are a taboo that you can't even speak about. I'll use the voting performance of comments in this thread as further evidence that you can't even suggest that men might be in trouble without meeting great resistance.
  - krapp 8y ago
    >I'm saying that men don't have a very good place in US society as evidenced by suicide, lack of university enrollment and incarceration. >. At no point did I suggest that women have power over men. "Is there a point where we collectively step back and acknowledge the great gains women have had in society; so great that they now have a very real advantage over men?"
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      Is that a question (yes question -- not assertion) that you don't think is worth asking?

twimbly 8y ago

Why is the supposed pay gap the only metric used to define and quanitify a supposed concept of equality and egalitarian status? It's a bit one-dimensional when there are many profoundly complex aspects to industrialized civilization. There are also profound differences in the potential for life paths, between men and women, which cannot be scored like points on a plotted graph. Do you need someone to enumerate all the bold and clear differences between men and women for you?

yesenadam 8y ago

I would have agreed with you, but after having seen the documentary The Red Pill (2016), I'm more sympathetic to the GP. I think it's difficult for the people on the progressive/women's/feminist side of the debate (in which I included myself) to even listen to the "men's" side - it's a complex of interconnected issues. But I think that documentary at least might be a good starting point for discussion. I found it fascinating, and a very important film. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/ Edit: Maybe downvoters might like to say why. Thanks.