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> The suicide rate in America is up by 18% since 2000. This is not merely a tragedy; it matters politically, too. The rise is largely among white, middle-aged,

> The suicide rate in America is up by 18% since 2000. This is not merely a tragedy; it matters politically, too. The rise is largely among white, middle-aged, poorly educated men in areas that were left behind by booms and crushed by busts. Their deaths are a symptom of troubles to which some see President Donald Trump as the answer. Those troubles should not be ignored. And yet they are ignored, time and time again. Even mentioning that men could have a problem that society could help solve will be met with great resistance. As we know, there's a never ending effort to get women into stem, to empower girls, to elevate women in society. Which can be good but it seems the pendulum has swung so far in that direction that men are now viewed as "the problem". It seems to me that technology is one of the last areas where men actually succeed but there's a great deal of effort put into place to remove that success. Women now outnumber men greatly in university. Is there a point where we collectively step back and acknowledge the great gains women have had in society; so great that they now have a very real advantage over men? In addition to suicide, men are imprisoned at a much higher level than women: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St... This seems like a problem at least worth acknowledging.

mjevans 8y ago
I believe in zero discrimination and equal opportunity. If numbers in any thing aren't as might be desired by roughly equal outcomes than it's probably time to start looking at other issues. As a very broad brush, assuming a positive and not-toxic workplace, adequate compensation WITH a proper balance of work/life is probably the next wrong to look at. Multiple branching career paths that don't derail when taking time off for kids is probably another. However, in general, US (and western) society is bi-modal school/work/being "productive" on one path and kids on the other. It does an astoundingly poor job of building stable communities, particularly as for at least two generations "The American Dream" has been dying/dead.
save_ferris 8y ago
> Is there a point where we collectively step back and acknowledge the great gains women have had in society; so great that they now have a very real advantage over men? What evidence do you have to support this? Women are still underpaid compared to their male counterparts for doing the exact same work, which SCOTUS recently ruled was perfectly legal. Women are still underrepresented in managerial and executive roles across the Fortune 500 and beyond, and have only begun making real gains in high-level US gov positions. How exactly is the increasing rate of women in university contributing to the problem of poorly-educated white men committing suicide at a higher rate?
- malvosenior 8y ago
  > What evidence do you have to support this? This article is about how male suicide is on the rise in the US. That is evidence. I also linked to male incarceration rates vs. female. > Women are still underpaid compared to their male counterparts for doing the exact same work This is simply not true and I challenge you to provide data to back up this assertion. https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy... > How exactly is the increasing rate of women in university contributing to the problem of poorly-educated white men committing suicide at a higher rate? Do you think they are totally unconnected? Is it not worth examining? Do you think male suicide and incarceration rates are even a problem worth looking into?
  - krapp 8y ago
    >This article is about how male suicide is on the rise in the US. That is evidence. This article is about how suicide among various groups is falling, and it mentions as a counterpoint the rise in suicides by "white, middle-aged, poorly educated men in areas that were left behind by booms and crushed by busts". Nowhere in the article is it implied that male suicide is on the rise in the US as a result of the power women have over men in society. For that matter, you haven't proven that the increase in proportional incarcerations of males versus females is due to the power women have over men in society (vis a vis, I assume, the legal system) either, rather than men committing more crimes than women. If you're going to challenge others to back up their assertions at least back up your own.
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      I'm saying that men don't have a very good place in US society as evidenced by suicide, lack of university enrollment and incarceration. At no point did I suggest that women have power over men. I see the problem as women's issues are being dealt with (often at the expense of men) while men's issues are a taboo that you can't even speak about. I'll use the voting performance of comments in this thread as further evidence that you can't even suggest that men might be in trouble without meeting great resistance.
thecrash 8y ago
>Even mentioning that men could have a problem that society could help solve will be met with great resistance. It's not mentioning the problem that's the issue, it's your framing: you discuss the progress of men and women as though it is a zero-sum game: as though the increasing standards of respect, pay, and social options for women must imply a decrease of these things for men. This is (to put it mildly) mistaken. Obviously men in our society have many problems that are unique to men. But these problems are not being exacerbated by the progression of women's rights. >As we know, there's a never ending effort to get women into stem, to empower girls, to elevate women in society. Yes, and this benefits more than just women. Moving society away from rigid gender roles helps ensure that both men and women will not find themselves desperate and trapped because of their inability to satisfy the demands of their gender role. There's a reason feminists complain about "patriarchy" instead of "men". Patriarchy is a social system, not specific people. The people aren't the problem, the system is. And as evidenced by the increasing suicide rate, patriarchy hurts men too. So maybe you prefer to emphasize concern about a different aspect of patriarchy than someone else, but it's absurd to think that they are therefore working against you.

mjevans 8y ago

I believe in zero discrimination and equal opportunity. If numbers in any thing aren't as might be desired by roughly equal outcomes than it's probably time to start looking at other issues. As a very broad brush, assuming a positive and not-toxic workplace, adequate compensation WITH a proper balance of work/life is probably the next wrong to look at. Multiple branching career paths that don't derail when taking time off for kids is probably another. However, in general, US (and western) society is bi-modal school/work/being "productive" on one path and kids on the other. It does an astoundingly poor job of building stable communities, particularly as for at least two generations "The American Dream" has been dying/dead.

save_ferris 8y ago

> Is there a point where we collectively step back and acknowledge the great gains women have had in society; so great that they now have a very real advantage over men? What evidence do you have to support this? Women are still underpaid compared to their male counterparts for doing the exact same work, which SCOTUS recently ruled was perfectly legal. Women are still underrepresented in managerial and executive roles across the Fortune 500 and beyond, and have only begun making real gains in high-level US gov positions. How exactly is the increasing rate of women in university contributing to the problem of poorly-educated white men committing suicide at a higher rate?

malvosenior 8y ago
> What evidence do you have to support this? This article is about how male suicide is on the rise in the US. That is evidence. I also linked to male incarceration rates vs. female. > Women are still underpaid compared to their male counterparts for doing the exact same work This is simply not true and I challenge you to provide data to back up this assertion. https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy... > How exactly is the increasing rate of women in university contributing to the problem of poorly-educated white men committing suicide at a higher rate? Do you think they are totally unconnected? Is it not worth examining? Do you think male suicide and incarceration rates are even a problem worth looking into?
- krapp 8y ago
  >This article is about how male suicide is on the rise in the US. That is evidence. This article is about how suicide among various groups is falling, and it mentions as a counterpoint the rise in suicides by "white, middle-aged, poorly educated men in areas that were left behind by booms and crushed by busts". Nowhere in the article is it implied that male suicide is on the rise in the US as a result of the power women have over men in society. For that matter, you haven't proven that the increase in proportional incarcerations of males versus females is due to the power women have over men in society (vis a vis, I assume, the legal system) either, rather than men committing more crimes than women. If you're going to challenge others to back up their assertions at least back up your own.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    I'm saying that men don't have a very good place in US society as evidenced by suicide, lack of university enrollment and incarceration. At no point did I suggest that women have power over men. I see the problem as women's issues are being dealt with (often at the expense of men) while men's issues are a taboo that you can't even speak about. I'll use the voting performance of comments in this thread as further evidence that you can't even suggest that men might be in trouble without meeting great resistance.

thecrash 8y ago

>Even mentioning that men could have a problem that society could help solve will be met with great resistance. It's not mentioning the problem that's the issue, it's your framing: you discuss the progress of men and women as though it is a zero-sum game: as though the increasing standards of respect, pay, and social options for women must imply a decrease of these things for men. This is (to put it mildly) mistaken. Obviously men in our society have many problems that are unique to men. But these problems are not being exacerbated by the progression of women's rights. >As we know, there's a never ending effort to get women into stem, to empower girls, to elevate women in society. Yes, and this benefits more than just women. Moving society away from rigid gender roles helps ensure that both men and women will not find themselves desperate and trapped because of their inability to satisfy the demands of their gender role. There's a reason feminists complain about "patriarchy" instead of "men". Patriarchy is a social system, not specific people. The people aren't the problem, the system is. And as evidenced by the increasing suicide rate, patriarchy hurts men too. So maybe you prefer to emphasize concern about a different aspect of patriarchy than someone else, but it's absurd to think that they are therefore working against you.