5 ms·

They're hiring the software equivalent of Subway sandwich artists, not chefs at two-Michelin-star restaurants. Sure, both jobs involve placing cheese on top of

by geofft 8y ago

They're hiring the software equivalent of Subway sandwich artists, not chefs at two-Michelin-star restaurants. Sure, both jobs involve placing cheese on top of bread. But in one of them the goal is to do it repeatedly and reliably, not creatively or innovatively.

redleggedfrog 8y ago
Great comment. Made me reflect on the need for different kinds of software development - each relevant, but completely different in execution.
- sologoub 8y ago
  What really worries me is that most non-tech companies (and even some tech companies) don’t understand the difference and frequently allocate resources inversely - paying the equivalent of a Michelin chef to make subs and trying to get top dollar dinner cooked with teams barely skilled in the subject. The “cloud wage” story could be very compelling in such situations, but it will likely lead to a lot of issues with the more complex systems. Someone has to be the true “architect” and own the successful evolution of the software/business. Back in 2014, this article struck me as very insightful on the subject: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/04/07/business/gods-edging-out-robots-at-toyota-facility/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/04/07/business/gods-e... If you only have automation or low-end jobs, you are going to lose the ability to make transformative/revolutionary moves. You will still have the ability to refine existing processes, but there are definitely diminishing returns to consider. The other item that’s also glossed over is sheer productivity - when dealing with more complex issues, experienced developers are a lot more productive, so your $15/hr can easily turn into 10-20x more hours with the wrong experience choice, in the end costing you more. Hate to use a cliche, but “the right tool for the right job” applies to software too.
  - geofft 8y ago
    And then they evaluate people on their Michelin-star-worthy work, which leads to the phenomenon of "promo-driven development" - people building new complex systems (that immediately turn into legacy code) because they don't get rewarded for doing something simple and maintainable. And then you need more Michelin-star-worthy chefs to keep things running because no sandwich artist will be able to figure it out.
  - nunb 8y ago
    Interesting article. At least three super-cars, or rather, hyper-cars, are built by hand : McLaren, Koenigsegg and Pagani all use plenty of high tech but have workers who are lifers.
  - dustingetz 8y ago
    Michelin chefs don't make subs for any price, let alone at commodity labor market price.
    - cdibona 8y ago
      José Andrés makes these amazing little sandwiches at Bazaar in Los Angeles. They're transcendent.
  - bsder 8y ago
    > The other item that’s also glossed over is sheer productivity - when dealing with more complex issues, experienced developers are a lot more productive, so your $15/hr can easily turn into 10-20x more hours with the wrong experience choice, in the end costing you more. When you are the "consulting company", you don't care. You just get to bill more hours. If you are the client company, you don't care, either. Anyone with half a brain cell in this day and age knows that outsourcing software development is wholesale idiocy. So, if you're doing that, you are either 1) idiots or 2) outsourcing for political reasons or 3) both.
  - gdy 8y ago
    Remote developers from 'shithole countries' get paid $15/hr because it's big money where they live, not because they are unqualified. Your options to compete with them are very limited.
doctorpangloss 8y ago
Are software engineers for hedge funds sandwich artists, or chefs at two-Michelin-star restaurants? Is the answer to every question, "Who is actually doing something creative and innovative?" always, "Me, and everyone else is not?" Is it bad for software engineering that its reality is starting to resemble subway sandwich artists, and its fiction inside people's heads resembles being a Michelin star chef?
- cheez 8y ago
  The owners of the hedge funds want the equivalent of sandwich artists. The sad part: it's possible. Right now though, it's more like a popular restaurant chef. Moving to the McDonald's model eventually.
neednewacct 8y ago
As a former cook in one and two Michelin star restaurants, I can assure you I move 10X faster than a Subway sandwich artist. I make 10X as many moves with precision. A single mistake can make the whole flow go to crap. Moreover, I can continuously track the temperature of upwards of 100 pieces of different types of meat and fowl, 5 or 6 venison loins, 15 veal chops, 25 pieces of filet, 25 pieces of rack of lamb, ect. I can do that with the optimal rest period before the meat touches the plate. Another place I was leading the fish station. We would plate 40 scallops dishes and 30 of the sea bass dishes at a time with a team of 3. (https://www.foodnut.com/i/Picasso-Las-Vegas/Picasso-Las-Vegas-Sea-Bass.jpg https://www.foodnut.com/i/Picasso-Las-Vegas/Picasso-Las-Vega...) The cook who did this didn't get the correct angles on the cauliflower quenelles -- so far from perfection. I write software now. I helped open that kitchen. The first couple months is engineering, how to get organized to plate 90 quenelles in 4 or 5 minutes under a heat lamp. Writing software is just like engineering that kitchen everyday all day, month after month. It's not about creativity or innovation with food. It's about creativity and innovation with solving engineering problems.
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  I'm consistently amazed by the diversity of folks that post on HN. It's why I keep coming back!
  - sibeliuss 8y ago
    same. Great response A+
- sizzle 8y ago
  Awesome life story, with that Michelin star kitchen skillset you have the grit and interpersonal leadership skills necessary to lead a team of devs into the unknown and produce results that matter, hopefully at a director or above level. Can you see yourself doing this? We need more diversity at the senior leadership level, please consider it if you haven't! Also if you don't mind me asking, can you share what made you leave your former profession, was it the stress/physical exhaustion? It seems like grueling work to say the least. Thanks for sharing your background and perspective on HN!
SZJX 8y ago
I don't really think that there's such a huge difference between developers in remote countries and developers in first-world countries. Just like many programmers would have imposter syndromes, many unheard-of programmers in poorer places are equally great. The only (or at least foremost) reason they're paid less is simply that they can afford to live a good life with such pay anyways. The biggest disadvantage to those outsourced developers might be that they didn't have the chance to learn English as well as the first-world devs, and thus might have issues with communication, which is a huge part of software engineering for sure. But in terms of abilities to learn, they are not worse than anybody.

by geofft 8y ago

redleggedfrog 8y ago

Great comment. Made me reflect on the need for different kinds of software development - each relevant, but completely different in execution.

sologoub 8y ago
What really worries me is that most non-tech companies (and even some tech companies) don’t understand the difference and frequently allocate resources inversely - paying the equivalent of a Michelin chef to make subs and trying to get top dollar dinner cooked with teams barely skilled in the subject. The “cloud wage” story could be very compelling in such situations, but it will likely lead to a lot of issues with the more complex systems. Someone has to be the true “architect” and own the successful evolution of the software/business. Back in 2014, this article struck me as very insightful on the subject: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/04/07/business/gods-edging-out-robots-at-toyota-facility/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/04/07/business/gods-e... If you only have automation or low-end jobs, you are going to lose the ability to make transformative/revolutionary moves. You will still have the ability to refine existing processes, but there are definitely diminishing returns to consider. The other item that’s also glossed over is sheer productivity - when dealing with more complex issues, experienced developers are a lot more productive, so your $15/hr can easily turn into 10-20x more hours with the wrong experience choice, in the end costing you more. Hate to use a cliche, but “the right tool for the right job” applies to software too.
- geofft 8y ago
  And then they evaluate people on their Michelin-star-worthy work, which leads to the phenomenon of "promo-driven development" - people building new complex systems (that immediately turn into legacy code) because they don't get rewarded for doing something simple and maintainable. And then you need more Michelin-star-worthy chefs to keep things running because no sandwich artist will be able to figure it out.
- nunb 8y ago
  Interesting article. At least three super-cars, or rather, hyper-cars, are built by hand : McLaren, Koenigsegg and Pagani all use plenty of high tech but have workers who are lifers.
- dustingetz 8y ago
  Michelin chefs don't make subs for any price, let alone at commodity labor market price.
  - cdibona 8y ago
    José Andrés makes these amazing little sandwiches at Bazaar in Los Angeles. They're transcendent.
- bsder 8y ago
  > The other item that’s also glossed over is sheer productivity - when dealing with more complex issues, experienced developers are a lot more productive, so your $15/hr can easily turn into 10-20x more hours with the wrong experience choice, in the end costing you more. When you are the "consulting company", you don't care. You just get to bill more hours. If you are the client company, you don't care, either. Anyone with half a brain cell in this day and age knows that outsourcing software development is wholesale idiocy. So, if you're doing that, you are either 1) idiots or 2) outsourcing for political reasons or 3) both.
- gdy 8y ago
  Remote developers from 'shithole countries' get paid $15/hr because it's big money where they live, not because they are unqualified. Your options to compete with them are very limited.

doctorpangloss 8y ago

Are software engineers for hedge funds sandwich artists, or chefs at two-Michelin-star restaurants? Is the answer to every question, "Who is actually doing something creative and innovative?" always, "Me, and everyone else is not?" Is it bad for software engineering that its reality is starting to resemble subway sandwich artists, and its fiction inside people's heads resembles being a Michelin star chef?

cheez 8y ago
The owners of the hedge funds want the equivalent of sandwich artists. The sad part: it's possible. Right now though, it's more like a popular restaurant chef. Moving to the McDonald's model eventually.

neednewacct 8y ago

As a former cook in one and two Michelin star restaurants, I can assure you I move 10X faster than a Subway sandwich artist. I make 10X as many moves with precision. A single mistake can make the whole flow go to crap. Moreover, I can continuously track the temperature of upwards of 100 pieces of different types of meat and fowl, 5 or 6 venison loins, 15 veal chops, 25 pieces of filet, 25 pieces of rack of lamb, ect. I can do that with the optimal rest period before the meat touches the plate. Another place I was leading the fish station. We would plate 40 scallops dishes and 30 of the sea bass dishes at a time with a team of 3. (https://www.foodnut.com/i/Picasso-Las-Vegas/Picasso-Las-Vegas-Sea-Bass.jpg https://www.foodnut.com/i/Picasso-Las-Vegas/Picasso-Las-Vega...) The cook who did this didn't get the correct angles on the cauliflower quenelles -- so far from perfection. I write software now. I helped open that kitchen. The first couple months is engineering, how to get organized to plate 90 quenelles in 4 or 5 minutes under a heat lamp. Writing software is just like engineering that kitchen everyday all day, month after month. It's not about creativity or innovation with food. It's about creativity and innovation with solving engineering problems.

akhilcacharya 8y ago
I'm consistently amazed by the diversity of folks that post on HN. It's why I keep coming back!
- sibeliuss 8y ago
  same. Great response A+
sizzle 8y ago
Awesome life story, with that Michelin star kitchen skillset you have the grit and interpersonal leadership skills necessary to lead a team of devs into the unknown and produce results that matter, hopefully at a director or above level. Can you see yourself doing this? We need more diversity at the senior leadership level, please consider it if you haven't! Also if you don't mind me asking, can you share what made you leave your former profession, was it the stress/physical exhaustion? It seems like grueling work to say the least. Thanks for sharing your background and perspective on HN!

SZJX 8y ago

I don't really think that there's such a huge difference between developers in remote countries and developers in first-world countries. Just like many programmers would have imposter syndromes, many unheard-of programmers in poorer places are equally great. The only (or at least foremost) reason they're paid less is simply that they can afford to live a good life with such pay anyways. The biggest disadvantage to those outsourced developers might be that they didn't have the chance to learn English as well as the first-world devs, and thus might have issues with communication, which is a huge part of software engineering for sure. But in terms of abilities to learn, they are not worse than anybody.