6 ms·

it's downward pressure on US wages without the benefits of having an employer, but for third worlders Right, this was the deal offered to Western factory worke

by gaius 8y ago

it's downward pressure on US wages without the benefits of having an employer, but for third worlders Right, this was the deal offered to Western factory workers: you, your family and your friends will be tossed on the scrapheap when the factory that employed most of the town goes offshore, but some people you’ve never met 10,000 miles away will be slightly better off, and some other people you’ve never met will enjoy slightly cheaper consumer products. And people wonder why those people vote as they do.

tfolbrecht 8y ago
If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? When the West had an industrial culture, we could compete with inexpensive labor because we had superior skill concentration, logistics, and capital investment. If you're willing to pay a premium, do so. It was Consumer indifference that let it happen.
- gaius 8y ago
  On the other hand, if by sheer chance you happened to be born in a low cost economy, why should you benefit from that at the expense of someone else? You didn’t earn it after all. Both scenarios are just accidents of birth, nothing more. Everyone gets paid at a rate relative to their local cost of living, remember. Being “cheaper” offshore is merely an artefact of exchange rates and tariffs.
- tivert 8y ago
  > If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? Because you're a human who's part of a society, not just a cog in a capitalist's machine. What you said makes sense, but only from a blinkered point of view that treats market forces as morality. You might as well turn it around and ask yourself why the person with skills from a poorer place shouldn't get the higher wage.
  - lotyrin 8y ago
    I do ask that... Why is it inherently moral for me to get a certain benefit vs someone else, why would that change depending on where I am or where they are, where I'm from or where they are from?
  - tfolbrecht 8y ago
    I don't disagree. I do try to consider that human, and member of society angle. I personally prefer working with people I can have a high level discussion with and they deliver their portion with best practices, good communication, baked in. That's valuable. I believe it makes your work distinct from someone without those skills. If it were all anonymous and I can make no distinction, you're equally valuable. There are cases where people from poorer places should and do get the higher wage.
  - twblalock 8y ago
    > You might as well turn it around and ask yourself why the person with skills from a poorer place shouldn't get the higher wage. Why shouldn't that person get the higher wage? That person is also part of a society.
    - tivert 8y ago
      > Why shouldn't that person get the higher wage? That person is also part of a society. Ideally, they should. The problem comes in when a capitalist plays a labor arbitrage game that causes economic damage to real people in his home area, just so he can pocket the difference in labor costs. Questions like... >>> If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? ...are pretty much always asked from the perspective of a labor-buying capitalist looking to maximize her own profits, regardless of externalities. Those questions have an insidious pseudo-moral tone that holds up the capitalist's profit over other concerns, and that subtly paints a worker's desire to make a respectable local wage as selfish. It's very rare to turn the question around (at least from a position of power) to challenge the capitalist's decision-making.
- ToFundorNot 8y ago
  It didn't help that the US shifted from being a third-world, low cost labour center, to a first world economy. US farmers - ~$9.50 USD a month ~1850's Euro labourer -~$652.44 USD a month ~1850's Silver value in USD: https://commodityhq.com/education/a-brief-2000-year-history-of-silver-prices/ https://commodityhq.com/education/a-brief-2000-year-history-... References - US Labour Rate(Farmers - page 6): https://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf https://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf Europe Labour Rates (Labourer - pages 6): https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/media/2150/allen-greatdiv.pdf https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/media/2150/allen-greatdiv.pdf
- fipple 8y ago
  “Should” doesn’t matter. If I can use my vote to prevent my job from going to a more talented and more desperate person in Cameroon I’m going to do so, right vs. wrong be damned.

by gaius 8y ago

tfolbrecht 8y ago

If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? When the West had an industrial culture, we could compete with inexpensive labor because we had superior skill concentration, logistics, and capital investment. If you're willing to pay a premium, do so. It was Consumer indifference that let it happen.

gaius 8y ago
On the other hand, if by sheer chance you happened to be born in a low cost economy, why should you benefit from that at the expense of someone else? You didn’t earn it after all. Both scenarios are just accidents of birth, nothing more. Everyone gets paid at a rate relative to their local cost of living, remember. Being “cheaper” offshore is merely an artefact of exchange rates and tariffs.
tivert 8y ago
> If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? Because you're a human who's part of a society, not just a cog in a capitalist's machine. What you said makes sense, but only from a blinkered point of view that treats market forces as morality. You might as well turn it around and ask yourself why the person with skills from a poorer place shouldn't get the higher wage.
- lotyrin 8y ago
  I do ask that... Why is it inherently moral for me to get a certain benefit vs someone else, why would that change depending on where I am or where they are, where I'm from or where they are from?
- tfolbrecht 8y ago
  I don't disagree. I do try to consider that human, and member of society angle. I personally prefer working with people I can have a high level discussion with and they deliver their portion with best practices, good communication, baked in. That's valuable. I believe it makes your work distinct from someone without those skills. If it were all anonymous and I can make no distinction, you're equally valuable. There are cases where people from poorer places should and do get the higher wage.
- twblalock 8y ago
  > You might as well turn it around and ask yourself why the person with skills from a poorer place shouldn't get the higher wage. Why shouldn't that person get the higher wage? That person is also part of a society.
  - tivert 8y ago
    > Why shouldn't that person get the higher wage? That person is also part of a society. Ideally, they should. The problem comes in when a capitalist plays a labor arbitrage game that causes economic damage to real people in his home area, just so he can pocket the difference in labor costs. Questions like... >>> If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? ...are pretty much always asked from the perspective of a labor-buying capitalist looking to maximize her own profits, regardless of externalities. Those questions have an insidious pseudo-moral tone that holds up the capitalist's profit over other concerns, and that subtly paints a worker's desire to make a respectable local wage as selfish. It's very rare to turn the question around (at least from a position of power) to challenge the capitalist's decision-making.
ToFundorNot 8y ago
It didn't help that the US shifted from being a third-world, low cost labour center, to a first world economy. US farmers - ~$9.50 USD a month ~1850's Euro labourer -~$652.44 USD a month ~1850's Silver value in USD: https://commodityhq.com/education/a-brief-2000-year-history-of-silver-prices/ https://commodityhq.com/education/a-brief-2000-year-history-... References - US Labour Rate(Farmers - page 6): https://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf https://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf Europe Labour Rates (Labourer - pages 6): https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/media/2150/allen-greatdiv.pdf https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/media/2150/allen-greatdiv.pdf
fipple 8y ago
“Should” doesn’t matter. If I can use my vote to prevent my job from going to a more talented and more desperate person in Cameroon I’m going to do so, right vs. wrong be damned.