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Sure it's downward pressure on US wages without the benefits of having an employer, but for third worlders, $15 USD must be mana from heaven. Calling it a "Sof

Sure it's downward pressure on US wages without the benefits of having an employer, but for third worlders, $15 USD must be mana from heaven. Calling it a "Software Sweatshop" is a little hyperbolic.

otoburb 8y ago
>>$15 USD must be mana from heaven. It is definitely mana from heaven, but the barriers can be somewhat high depending on the contractor's locale: 1) they need to be able to successfully navigate their own country's tax and self-employment paperwork and regulations; 2) they need enough up-front capital to purchase powerful-enough equipment to do the job in the first place; and 3) they need telecom infrastructure that presumably supports high-speed internet (i.e. faster than dial-up).
- tfolbrecht 8y ago
  I'd hope they're capable of that. Lol, imagine as the farmers are in the fields, and merchants in the shops grinding away to make a few dollars a day. This remote dev is making a 10x multiple of their pay. Sweatshop? Ha.
- leroy_masochist 8y ago
  Internet cafes in developing countries are abundant, and you might be surprised how fast the connectivity often is. They cost a tiny fraction of $15/hour so I don't see how this is a capital-constrained job for anyone. The theoretically necessary self-employment paperwork is not going to be a meaningful barrier to action in most developing countries.
  - rolandog 8y ago
    If it were so simple and accessible why don't American citizens migrate to those countries to take advantage of the low cost of life?
    - reidjs 8y ago
      That is a super risky proposition. It is not so easy to just pack up shop and leave a country. You will have to leave behind most if not all your friends and family. Also, you need to have adequate savings to make that leap, which most people do not have.
    - ttul 8y ago
      I know at least some programmers who have moved to Third World countries. In Indonesia, for example, you can live like a prince for about $1000 a month. Then work remote for US based companies. Your North American resume and cultural knowledge allows you to still charge a decent rate for your skills. But your cost-of-living is minuscule. It’s a decent option for many young people to consider.
    - leroy_masochist 8y ago
      Many do
    - ajcodez 8y ago
      They do. All the time. Traders move to Puerto Rico and programmers move to Thailand. It’s even better because you get the first $100k tax free as employee, or approx 14% off if self employed.
      - selimthegrim 8y ago
        Do the programmers not like arroz con gandules? Or is it just an established trend?
        ajcodez 8y ago
        Puerto Rico is attractive to US traders because if you live there for six months out of the year you pay zero capital gains tax. On the other hand programmers still have to pay income tax so are more likely to seek inexpensive tourist destinations.
    - eloff 8y ago
      I did this in Panama. They use the US dollar, but cost of living is not that low. Food actually cost more, with the exception of locally produced things. It can work out well. I did it tax free too, but it is a lot more complex for US citizens. Although I think you only have taxes on income above $100,000 a year outside of the country, but I'm not an accountant, so take that with some salt.
tomohawk 8y ago
The sweatshop aspect likely has more to do with the monitoring and technological browbeating than the wages. Sweatshops are characterized by overbearing micromanagement of all workshop activities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweatshop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweatshop
baybal2 8y ago
> but for third worlders, $15 USD must be mana from heaven. This model is waning. Eastern Europeans now flock to East Asia in swathes, and are way way more aware of global job market. This also creates a factor of negative selection: talents leave right after graduation, and remaining labour force is not suited to "evolve" and progress without a guiding force.
- tfolbrecht 8y ago
  How is any of that a bad thing? If you can't utilize someone to their potential because of some political or social barrier, that's an absolute shame.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    I never meant so, I state that things are turning progressively sour for companies like Crossover.
- majani 8y ago
  This model won't wane until the entire world is developed with strong workers rights everywhere. Until then, the demand for cheap labour will just shift to the next poor region.
g-adamante 8y ago
With $15 an hour working 50 hours a week in Brazil you’d be in the country’s top 5% earners. So yeah.
devoply 8y ago
> but for third worlders, $15 USD must be mana from heaven. For acceptable Indian developers this is normal wage. You get all the benefits of outsourcing from something like this as well as all the problems. He's bought out many contracts through companies that were not doing so great. Over time the companies that he's servicing contracts for will understand the quality of code they are getting for their money and perhaps change their minds. I give it 10 years.
gaius 8y ago
it's downward pressure on US wages without the benefits of having an employer, but for third worlders Right, this was the deal offered to Western factory workers: you, your family and your friends will be tossed on the scrapheap when the factory that employed most of the town goes offshore, but some people you’ve never met 10,000 miles away will be slightly better off, and some other people you’ve never met will enjoy slightly cheaper consumer products. And people wonder why those people vote as they do.
- tfolbrecht 8y ago
  If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? When the West had an industrial culture, we could compete with inexpensive labor because we had superior skill concentration, logistics, and capital investment. If you're willing to pay a premium, do so. It was Consumer indifference that let it happen.
  - gaius 8y ago
    On the other hand, if by sheer chance you happened to be born in a low cost economy, why should you benefit from that at the expense of someone else? You didn’t earn it after all. Both scenarios are just accidents of birth, nothing more. Everyone gets paid at a rate relative to their local cost of living, remember. Being “cheaper” offshore is merely an artefact of exchange rates and tariffs.
  - tivert 8y ago
    > If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? Because you're a human who's part of a society, not just a cog in a capitalist's machine. What you said makes sense, but only from a blinkered point of view that treats market forces as morality. You might as well turn it around and ask yourself why the person with skills from a poorer place shouldn't get the higher wage.
    - lotyrin 8y ago
      I do ask that... Why is it inherently moral for me to get a certain benefit vs someone else, why would that change depending on where I am or where they are, where I'm from or where they are from?
majani 8y ago
$15 an hour comes to around $30,000 a year. That's mana from heaven anywhere outside of the top 20 or so economies of the world

Sure it's downward pressure on US wages without the benefits of having an employer, but for third worlders, $15 USD must be mana from heaven. Calling it a "Software Sweatshop" is a little hyperbolic.

otoburb 8y ago

>>$15 USD must be mana from heaven. It is definitely mana from heaven, but the barriers can be somewhat high depending on the contractor's locale: 1) they need to be able to successfully navigate their own country's tax and self-employment paperwork and regulations; 2) they need enough up-front capital to purchase powerful-enough equipment to do the job in the first place; and 3) they need telecom infrastructure that presumably supports high-speed internet (i.e. faster than dial-up).

tfolbrecht 8y ago
I'd hope they're capable of that. Lol, imagine as the farmers are in the fields, and merchants in the shops grinding away to make a few dollars a day. This remote dev is making a 10x multiple of their pay. Sweatshop? Ha.
leroy_masochist 8y ago
Internet cafes in developing countries are abundant, and you might be surprised how fast the connectivity often is. They cost a tiny fraction of $15/hour so I don't see how this is a capital-constrained job for anyone. The theoretically necessary self-employment paperwork is not going to be a meaningful barrier to action in most developing countries.
- rolandog 8y ago
  If it were so simple and accessible why don't American citizens migrate to those countries to take advantage of the low cost of life?
  - reidjs 8y ago
    That is a super risky proposition. It is not so easy to just pack up shop and leave a country. You will have to leave behind most if not all your friends and family. Also, you need to have adequate savings to make that leap, which most people do not have.
  - ttul 8y ago
    I know at least some programmers who have moved to Third World countries. In Indonesia, for example, you can live like a prince for about $1000 a month. Then work remote for US based companies. Your North American resume and cultural knowledge allows you to still charge a decent rate for your skills. But your cost-of-living is minuscule. It’s a decent option for many young people to consider.
  - leroy_masochist 8y ago
    Many do
  - ajcodez 8y ago
    They do. All the time. Traders move to Puerto Rico and programmers move to Thailand. It’s even better because you get the first $100k tax free as employee, or approx 14% off if self employed.
    - selimthegrim 8y ago
      Do the programmers not like arroz con gandules? Or is it just an established trend?
      - ajcodez 8y ago
        Puerto Rico is attractive to US traders because if you live there for six months out of the year you pay zero capital gains tax. On the other hand programmers still have to pay income tax so are more likely to seek inexpensive tourist destinations.
  - eloff 8y ago
    I did this in Panama. They use the US dollar, but cost of living is not that low. Food actually cost more, with the exception of locally produced things. It can work out well. I did it tax free too, but it is a lot more complex for US citizens. Although I think you only have taxes on income above $100,000 a year outside of the country, but I'm not an accountant, so take that with some salt.

tomohawk 8y ago

The sweatshop aspect likely has more to do with the monitoring and technological browbeating than the wages. Sweatshops are characterized by overbearing micromanagement of all workshop activities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweatshop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweatshop

baybal2 8y ago

> but for third worlders, $15 USD must be mana from heaven. This model is waning. Eastern Europeans now flock to East Asia in swathes, and are way way more aware of global job market. This also creates a factor of negative selection: talents leave right after graduation, and remaining labour force is not suited to "evolve" and progress without a guiding force.

tfolbrecht 8y ago
How is any of that a bad thing? If you can't utilize someone to their potential because of some political or social barrier, that's an absolute shame.
- baybal2 8y ago
  I never meant so, I state that things are turning progressively sour for companies like Crossover.
majani 8y ago
This model won't wane until the entire world is developed with strong workers rights everywhere. Until then, the demand for cheap labour will just shift to the next poor region.

g-adamante 8y ago

With $15 an hour working 50 hours a week in Brazil you’d be in the country’s top 5% earners. So yeah.

devoply 8y ago

> but for third worlders, $15 USD must be mana from heaven. For acceptable Indian developers this is normal wage. You get all the benefits of outsourcing from something like this as well as all the problems. He's bought out many contracts through companies that were not doing so great. Over time the companies that he's servicing contracts for will understand the quality of code they are getting for their money and perhaps change their minds. I give it 10 years.

gaius 8y ago

it's downward pressure on US wages without the benefits of having an employer, but for third worlders Right, this was the deal offered to Western factory workers: you, your family and your friends will be tossed on the scrapheap when the factory that employed most of the town goes offshore, but some people you’ve never met 10,000 miles away will be slightly better off, and some other people you’ve never met will enjoy slightly cheaper consumer products. And people wonder why those people vote as they do.

tfolbrecht 8y ago
If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? When the West had an industrial culture, we could compete with inexpensive labor because we had superior skill concentration, logistics, and capital investment. If you're willing to pay a premium, do so. It was Consumer indifference that let it happen.
- gaius 8y ago
  On the other hand, if by sheer chance you happened to be born in a low cost economy, why should you benefit from that at the expense of someone else? You didn’t earn it after all. Both scenarios are just accidents of birth, nothing more. Everyone gets paid at a rate relative to their local cost of living, remember. Being “cheaper” offshore is merely an artefact of exchange rates and tariffs.
- tivert 8y ago
  > If your work can't be differentiated from someone elses, why should you command a higher wage? Because you're a human who's part of a society, not just a cog in a capitalist's machine. What you said makes sense, but only from a blinkered point of view that treats market forces as morality. You might as well turn it around and ask yourself why the person with skills from a poorer place shouldn't get the higher wage.
  - lotyrin 8y ago
    I do ask that... Why is it inherently moral for me to get a certain benefit vs someone else, why would that change depending on where I am or where they are, where I'm from or where they are from?

majani 8y ago

$15 an hour comes to around $30,000 a year. That's mana from heaven anywhere outside of the top 20 or so economies of the world