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I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So becaus

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever". He thought he was making a dystopian prediction, a warning of sorts, but he could've just as easily called it a history lesson about China. Sure, many other places, most places in fact, have horrible histories, with evil rulers vastly outnumbering the even somewhat good ones, but China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name. A non-stop tradition of oppression doesn't somehow make new oppression less bad. NOTE: Nothing against the Chinese culture or people. I'm extremely fond of lots of Chinese things, not in the least Chinese humor for which I have a particularly soft spot. I love working with Chinese people, I love meeting Chinese people. It makes me sad that such a wonderful place and a wonderful culture can also have such a horrible tradition of oppression.

mavdi 8y ago
Historical context of a country matters a lot when judging the extent of a surveillance problem. Chinese are terrified of chaos and disorder, which has in the past has led to civil wars. For them the first priority is keeping the status quo. Just take a look at the death toll of these wars: https://www.businessinsider.com/bloodiest-conflicts-in-chinese-history-2014-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/bloodiest-conflicts-in-chine... 25 Million casualties, and that's in the 17th century. Compare that to the absolute carnage of Syria, which has had less than half a million casualties.
- Juliate 8y ago
  That's not a valid excuse for a totalitarian, unfair system. Because these systems have all been torn down by some kind of civil war - there is no other way, because of the nature of power and the structures it uses.
- paganel 8y ago
  Mores do change, people do evolve (I know that's not the PC term to use, but that's the reality of it), there's no reason to allow ourselves to allow the Government or any other Government-like entity to dictate our lives only because some centuries (or decades ago) there was a deadly civil war going on. Just think about the English and John Locke, who wrote his "Second Treatise of Government" just a few decades after the English king had been decapitated as the result of a civil war. Without people like Locke the world would have been a worst place now and we wouldn't probably have this conversation at all.
dnomad 8y ago
> China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name. This is such complete nonsense. I think it's hilarious how totally and completely misguided about China that Westerners, and Americans in particular, actually are. It boggles the belief just how much complete nonsense is spouted here on reddit and in the Western press. This is the very essence of people being disconnected from reality and constructing a new reality in accordance with their ideology. Reality check: go to China and actually talk to the Chinese themselves. Radical idea! Social credit is extremely popular in China [1]. The social credit system is also not new. Anybody who understands how Chinese society has always worked would understand that this is the application of new technology to ideas that are nearly three thousand years old. Anyways resume your ideological freak-out. [1] https://www.merics.org/en/blog/chinas-social-credit-systems-are-highly-popular-now https://www.merics.org/en/blog/chinas-social-credit-systems-...
- Kaveren 8y ago
  > "Citizens with access to benefits respond more favorably" Of course they do. These sorts of systems always offer a sizable portion of the population benefits, that's how they gain popular support. This doesn't mean that they aren't terrible ideas. You have to consider how a government affects the people who disapprove of the government, who are not part of a majority, who are not conformists. Many people don't think this is worth doing. But the sentiment that only the conformist majority matters has led to unspeakable atrocities throughout history, and continues to even in the present day across the world.
  - fspeech 8y ago
    Your criticism is very valid. But saying only the majority benefits is very different from claiming that the purpose is to oppress everyone, isn't it? That is what the gp was angered by and responding to.
- username90 8y ago
  > Social credit is extremely popular in China Person: "I think a social credit system is bad for China." Automated Bot: "100 social credit penalty for you!"
paraditedc 8y ago
I want to leave a comment to fellow Chinese citizens reading this thread. 1. "Don't waste your time with explanations. People only hear what they want to hear." 2. Don't get triggered by downvotes. They are just virtual numbers. They won't change the reality and facts. In the future, you will be able to come back and laugh at them. 3. It is not worth your time to explain the facts to them. Eventually people will face the reality no matter how hard media paints it. Just give it some time for the world to sort itself out. Edit: If you really want to comment, try your best to be civil and substantial. I know it is hard with all the emotions, but not impossible.
- Juliate 8y ago
  But please don't be too proud either. China is a great country, you're a great people. As we all are. All humans. Qualities. Defaults. History. You're not _that_ exceptional either. We don't criticize China. Neither you. We criticize the very idea of automation of social credit (thus of social relations, and individual freedom, and life), because our parents and grandparents had to experiment with it, and its consequences.
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    I guess you are referencing Nazi? Without going into a history lesson, let me just point out that China fought against Germany in both WW1 and WW2. So our parents and grandparents do have some ideas of experiments and consequences.
    - Juliate 8y ago
      > I guess you are referencing Nazi? Nope. Not everything totalitarian that happened in Europe in the past century was about nazism. Far from that.
tepidandroid 8y ago
> A non-stop tradition of oppression doesn't somehow make new oppression less bad. The Chinese government abused and oppressed their people so hard for so long they accidentally lifted 740 million people out of abject, 3rd world poverty. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
- iliketosleep 8y ago
  I think you're missing the big picture. Just ask yourself these two questions: 1. How did they get into "abject, 3rd world poverty" in the first place? 2. Is their current policy direction closer to the era of Deng or that of Mao?
  - throwaway548u65 8y ago
    1. 100 years of being colonized by multiple countries. Then a World War followed by a Civil War. 2. Deng for sure.

mavdi 8y ago

Historical context of a country matters a lot when judging the extent of a surveillance problem. Chinese are terrified of chaos and disorder, which has in the past has led to civil wars. For them the first priority is keeping the status quo. Just take a look at the death toll of these wars: https://www.businessinsider.com/bloodiest-conflicts-in-chinese-history-2014-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/bloodiest-conflicts-in-chine... 25 Million casualties, and that's in the 17th century. Compare that to the absolute carnage of Syria, which has had less than half a million casualties.

Juliate 8y ago
That's not a valid excuse for a totalitarian, unfair system. Because these systems have all been torn down by some kind of civil war - there is no other way, because of the nature of power and the structures it uses.
paganel 8y ago
Mores do change, people do evolve (I know that's not the PC term to use, but that's the reality of it), there's no reason to allow ourselves to allow the Government or any other Government-like entity to dictate our lives only because some centuries (or decades ago) there was a deadly civil war going on. Just think about the English and John Locke, who wrote his "Second Treatise of Government" just a few decades after the English king had been decapitated as the result of a civil war. Without people like Locke the world would have been a worst place now and we wouldn't probably have this conversation at all.

dnomad 8y ago

> China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name. This is such complete nonsense. I think it's hilarious how totally and completely misguided about China that Westerners, and Americans in particular, actually are. It boggles the belief just how much complete nonsense is spouted here on reddit and in the Western press. This is the very essence of people being disconnected from reality and constructing a new reality in accordance with their ideology. Reality check: go to China and actually talk to the Chinese themselves. Radical idea! Social credit is extremely popular in China [1]. The social credit system is also not new. Anybody who understands how Chinese society has always worked would understand that this is the application of new technology to ideas that are nearly three thousand years old. Anyways resume your ideological freak-out. [1] https://www.merics.org/en/blog/chinas-social-credit-systems-are-highly-popular-now https://www.merics.org/en/blog/chinas-social-credit-systems-...

Kaveren 8y ago
> "Citizens with access to benefits respond more favorably" Of course they do. These sorts of systems always offer a sizable portion of the population benefits, that's how they gain popular support. This doesn't mean that they aren't terrible ideas. You have to consider how a government affects the people who disapprove of the government, who are not part of a majority, who are not conformists. Many people don't think this is worth doing. But the sentiment that only the conformist majority matters has led to unspeakable atrocities throughout history, and continues to even in the present day across the world.
- fspeech 8y ago
  Your criticism is very valid. But saying only the majority benefits is very different from claiming that the purpose is to oppress everyone, isn't it? That is what the gp was angered by and responding to.
username90 8y ago
> Social credit is extremely popular in China Person: "I think a social credit system is bad for China." Automated Bot: "100 social credit penalty for you!"

paraditedc 8y ago

I want to leave a comment to fellow Chinese citizens reading this thread. 1. "Don't waste your time with explanations. People only hear what they want to hear." 2. Don't get triggered by downvotes. They are just virtual numbers. They won't change the reality and facts. In the future, you will be able to come back and laugh at them. 3. It is not worth your time to explain the facts to them. Eventually people will face the reality no matter how hard media paints it. Just give it some time for the world to sort itself out. Edit: If you really want to comment, try your best to be civil and substantial. I know it is hard with all the emotions, but not impossible.

Juliate 8y ago
But please don't be too proud either. China is a great country, you're a great people. As we all are. All humans. Qualities. Defaults. History. You're not _that_ exceptional either. We don't criticize China. Neither you. We criticize the very idea of automation of social credit (thus of social relations, and individual freedom, and life), because our parents and grandparents had to experiment with it, and its consequences.
- paraditedc 8y ago
  I guess you are referencing Nazi? Without going into a history lesson, let me just point out that China fought against Germany in both WW1 and WW2. So our parents and grandparents do have some ideas of experiments and consequences.
  - Juliate 8y ago
    > I guess you are referencing Nazi? Nope. Not everything totalitarian that happened in Europe in the past century was about nazism. Far from that.

tepidandroid 8y ago

> A non-stop tradition of oppression doesn't somehow make new oppression less bad. The Chinese government abused and oppressed their people so hard for so long they accidentally lifted 740 million people out of abject, 3rd world poverty. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.

iliketosleep 8y ago
I think you're missing the big picture. Just ask yourself these two questions: 1. How did they get into "abject, 3rd world poverty" in the first place? 2. Is their current policy direction closer to the era of Deng or that of Mao?
- throwaway548u65 8y ago
  1. 100 years of being colonized by multiple countries. Then a World War followed by a Civil War. 2. Deng for sure.