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As a person who moved from Vancouver to Toronto, I really don't think this post grasps what opportunities the rest of Canada, nevermind North America or Interna

As a person who moved from Vancouver to Toronto, I really don't think this post grasps what opportunities the rest of Canada, nevermind North America or International, has available. Toronto is expensive. I need to express that. Business operating costs will always be lower of you compare another city to one that is often ranked exceedingly expensive. Relative references are not appropriate since you don't have a baseline. So, use a baseline of what the average operating cost is. Toronto is HARD to get around. My morning commute is over 1 hour of driving at 5:40am - 6:50am with some variations depending on weekday, accidents, and time of year. My shift starts at 10am. If I leave at 8am I would arrive at 10:30am and be late for work. I hope this perspective shows how hard it is to get into downtown Toronto and how bad their traffic is. (The office is located away from the GO train and there's free parking in case people are wondering why I drive instead of transit.) Toronto is also a bit old in tech. When I came from Vancouver and went to meetups, I felt like someone had rolled the clock back by two years. It was an odd feeling. The community just felt... Behind. I think this comes from businesses not giving as much time for developers to explore new technologies, hence why there may be larger delays in new tech popping up in Toronto. Businesses are... Conservative. Having worked in Vancouver and coming to Toronto there was a cultural change that needed to be made. Businesses operated with less focus on employee happiness and talent retention and more on "talent results" (read: work or replaced) and transparency on 3x salary ROI. Banks and conservative businesses practices are very much the norm in Toronto. Very helpful for a business but to an employee, Toronto has a lot of cons for workplace lifestyle. If you live in Toronto, I recommend working remote with US companies. Or, if you are inclined to do so, move to Vancouver or Calgary. Because of these issues that Toronto presents, I have myself been planning on moving to Calgary in a year or two.

serverascode 8y ago
I think Calgary is a good choice for a place to live in Canada. However, I don't agree that the meetups in Toronto show legacy technology thinking. I just went to a meetup at Shopify on Istio. Just Istio. Google and Microsoft have big presences. Shopify is a huge company on the cutting edge of tech. And there are tons of smaller startups that are doing great work, pushing the boundaries. There is also a lot of AI work going on as well. I don't completely get Blockchain, but Toronto has gone crazy for it. Edited to indicate Toronto meetups.
- SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
  > I don't completely get Blockchain, but Toronto has gone crazy for it. That's not a recommendation, IMHO.
  - serverascode 8y ago
    I concur. It's very weird. You could go to some kind of blockchain related event every week.
Waterluvian 8y ago
I have turned down two jobs because they were in Toronto. I don't want to commute or move my family there. We need more remote work and more work in other cities.
- bungie4 8y ago
  I moved from Toronto decades ago. Since then I've rejected offers constantly because, quite frankly, IMO, Toronto is a hole. I now find myself living north of Toronto, with limited career options but much happier near the 'outdoors' with my family. Makes your choices, takes your chances.
  - lucidone 8y ago
    As someone from Northern Ontario who moved to SW Ontario for work as a software dev - how did you do this? I'd love to move back home, but there are very few jobs, and the ones that do exist are dramatically lower salaries with outdated approaches (~45k, Visual Basic or C++98 vs ~80K, whatever web tech I want). Do you work remotely?
    - bungie4 8y ago
      The trick is not look for work in a startup/dev environment, but in the institutional and corporate environment. Their are jobs and the payscale you desire, just not in the quantities you desire. For instance, I was at my last position for 6 years. The last 3 of which, I was actively looking for work. It took a while, but I'm making equiv to Toronto wages in a new position. But yes, the majority of postings are in the low rent payscale neighbourhood. Which is weird, because you'd think to attract skilled talent away from T.O., the scale would in fact be higher.
      - lucidone 8y ago
        Cheers, when time time comes I'll bug whatever local hospitals, banks, education institutions and admin centres exist.
- 8y ago
chrisseaton 8y ago
> My morning commute is over 1 hour of driving ... into downtown Toronto I can't understand why you'd attempt to drive into the centre of a major city in the first place. That seems like obviously a bad idea. Why are you trying to do that? Where do you even park? Isn't there a train you can take?
- BenMorganIO 8y ago
  There is. It would take over two hours of transit time for me. 10 minutes driving to a go station, 1 hour and a half on train, 20 minutes on TTC. Then walking time to office.
  - slededit 8y ago
    Vancouver is just a smaller city. Your instincts didn't work well for you when picking your current housing. Reasonable commute times are a huge factor in picking housing out here.
    - BenMorganIO 8y ago
      They were not instincts. They were heavily researched and strategic to maximize money saved and minimize transit times. I still stand by where I live and have thought about moving closer, but the data never suffices.
      - slededit 8y ago
        Not many people I know drive - simply to avoid the aggravation. GO service is amazing if you are on the Lakeshore line, and pretty good on others as well. But property prices are much higher close to stations.
smnrchrds 8y ago
Is there really a tech sector in Calgary? It can't be that big: I live in Calgary and I am not aware of it.
- BenMorganIO 8y ago
  There isn't. I'll be working remotely as time progresses with my current company. And Calgary is looking very attractive to a first time homebuyer. Although income tax is a little higher, the lack of a provincial tax and cost of gas is major savings.
  - parthdesai 8y ago
    But then you have to deal with that winter.
fouc 8y ago
I guess it could be true that there's a bit of culture difference in terms of East/conservative/older vs west/progressive/newer. However, it also seems to me there's a much stronger demand for software developers in Toronto - the salaries are higher. Which tech/communities are you looking at? For example, I think the Elixir community is bigger/more active in Toronto. Also I can't imagine that commute is better in Vancouver if you get a house that's just as far away.
- BenMorganIO 8y ago
  My commute in Van was 20 minutes with an apartment. But yes, it would be worse if it was home buying.
- BenMorganIO 8y ago
  The Elixir community really is much more active. As an elixir programmer, I quite enjoy it.
danso 8y ago
What do you think of Vancouver, with respect to SF and NYC? When living in the latter, Vancouver felt like the only other city I’d be happy to move to, probably because of its density.
- BenMorganIO 8y ago
  Vancouver has a high quality of living. No need for a vehicle, TransLink is oddly rated the highest of transit systems. It's beautiful there. But, it comes with a financial price.
crimsonalucard 8y ago
I think outside of sf, most companies are in general really behind. The newness in sf comes from the fact that the city has a lot of startups. Companies that just start will choose the latest and greatest.
marketgod 8y ago
This is confusing because you can't possibly be living and working in Toronto-proper. If you don't live in Toronto-proper, you can't appreciate the value of it. If you don't live and work in Toronto-proper, then you miss all the value of it. Stating you live in Toronto is kind of not valuable information for someone reading this. For example, living in Toronto-proper, i.e. South of Bloor between Broadview and University is completely different from living in Scarborough/Etobicoke. Yeah, I know it's amalgamated, but really, anybody saying they live in Toronto for the city, is living within the "City of Toronto" itself, not one of the amalgamated cities. For example, in your case, if you are 2 hours drive away at 8:00, I'd presume you are out as further than Scarborough on the east/north, and further than Etobicoke in the West/North, in that case, you can't really experience the city itself. By the time you get in for work, you don't have time to walk around the city, by the time you are done work, you have to head back home because you really don't have time to experience the city. Driving in on the weekends would eat up your whole day and you would likely leave early. You may have gotten here a bit late, but 4 years ago, a 2-bedroom was going for $1500 (with 2.9% interest raises, probably $1700 now) with a parking spot in the Midtown/Uptown area, which is admittedly outside of Toronto proper. However, it allowed you to gain both the benefits of Toronto and have a short commute if you needed it for work. Actually the last 5 years the reverse commute has been growing. Also, look at Markham for jobs in this case/moving there, as there are many companies opening there.

serverascode 8y ago

I think Calgary is a good choice for a place to live in Canada. However, I don't agree that the meetups in Toronto show legacy technology thinking. I just went to a meetup at Shopify on Istio. Just Istio. Google and Microsoft have big presences. Shopify is a huge company on the cutting edge of tech. And there are tons of smaller startups that are doing great work, pushing the boundaries. There is also a lot of AI work going on as well. I don't completely get Blockchain, but Toronto has gone crazy for it. Edited to indicate Toronto meetups.

SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
> I don't completely get Blockchain, but Toronto has gone crazy for it. That's not a recommendation, IMHO.
- serverascode 8y ago
  I concur. It's very weird. You could go to some kind of blockchain related event every week.

Waterluvian 8y ago

I have turned down two jobs because they were in Toronto. I don't want to commute or move my family there. We need more remote work and more work in other cities.

bungie4 8y ago
I moved from Toronto decades ago. Since then I've rejected offers constantly because, quite frankly, IMO, Toronto is a hole. I now find myself living north of Toronto, with limited career options but much happier near the 'outdoors' with my family. Makes your choices, takes your chances.
- lucidone 8y ago
  As someone from Northern Ontario who moved to SW Ontario for work as a software dev - how did you do this? I'd love to move back home, but there are very few jobs, and the ones that do exist are dramatically lower salaries with outdated approaches (~45k, Visual Basic or C++98 vs ~80K, whatever web tech I want). Do you work remotely?
  - bungie4 8y ago
    The trick is not look for work in a startup/dev environment, but in the institutional and corporate environment. Their are jobs and the payscale you desire, just not in the quantities you desire. For instance, I was at my last position for 6 years. The last 3 of which, I was actively looking for work. It took a while, but I'm making equiv to Toronto wages in a new position. But yes, the majority of postings are in the low rent payscale neighbourhood. Which is weird, because you'd think to attract skilled talent away from T.O., the scale would in fact be higher.
    - lucidone 8y ago
      Cheers, when time time comes I'll bug whatever local hospitals, banks, education institutions and admin centres exist.
8y ago

chrisseaton 8y ago

> My morning commute is over 1 hour of driving ... into downtown Toronto I can't understand why you'd attempt to drive into the centre of a major city in the first place. That seems like obviously a bad idea. Why are you trying to do that? Where do you even park? Isn't there a train you can take?

BenMorganIO 8y ago
There is. It would take over two hours of transit time for me. 10 minutes driving to a go station, 1 hour and a half on train, 20 minutes on TTC. Then walking time to office.
- slededit 8y ago
  Vancouver is just a smaller city. Your instincts didn't work well for you when picking your current housing. Reasonable commute times are a huge factor in picking housing out here.
  - BenMorganIO 8y ago
    They were not instincts. They were heavily researched and strategic to maximize money saved and minimize transit times. I still stand by where I live and have thought about moving closer, but the data never suffices.
    - slededit 8y ago
      Not many people I know drive - simply to avoid the aggravation. GO service is amazing if you are on the Lakeshore line, and pretty good on others as well. But property prices are much higher close to stations.

smnrchrds 8y ago

Is there really a tech sector in Calgary? It can't be that big: I live in Calgary and I am not aware of it.

BenMorganIO 8y ago
There isn't. I'll be working remotely as time progresses with my current company. And Calgary is looking very attractive to a first time homebuyer. Although income tax is a little higher, the lack of a provincial tax and cost of gas is major savings.
- parthdesai 8y ago
  But then you have to deal with that winter.

fouc 8y ago

I guess it could be true that there's a bit of culture difference in terms of East/conservative/older vs west/progressive/newer. However, it also seems to me there's a much stronger demand for software developers in Toronto - the salaries are higher. Which tech/communities are you looking at? For example, I think the Elixir community is bigger/more active in Toronto. Also I can't imagine that commute is better in Vancouver if you get a house that's just as far away.

BenMorganIO 8y ago
My commute in Van was 20 minutes with an apartment. But yes, it would be worse if it was home buying.
BenMorganIO 8y ago
The Elixir community really is much more active. As an elixir programmer, I quite enjoy it.

danso 8y ago

What do you think of Vancouver, with respect to SF and NYC? When living in the latter, Vancouver felt like the only other city I’d be happy to move to, probably because of its density.

BenMorganIO 8y ago
Vancouver has a high quality of living. No need for a vehicle, TransLink is oddly rated the highest of transit systems. It's beautiful there. But, it comes with a financial price.

crimsonalucard 8y ago

I think outside of sf, most companies are in general really behind. The newness in sf comes from the fact that the city has a lot of startups. Companies that just start will choose the latest and greatest.

marketgod 8y ago

This is confusing because you can't possibly be living and working in Toronto-proper. If you don't live in Toronto-proper, you can't appreciate the value of it. If you don't live and work in Toronto-proper, then you miss all the value of it. Stating you live in Toronto is kind of not valuable information for someone reading this. For example, living in Toronto-proper, i.e. South of Bloor between Broadview and University is completely different from living in Scarborough/Etobicoke. Yeah, I know it's amalgamated, but really, anybody saying they live in Toronto for the city, is living within the "City of Toronto" itself, not one of the amalgamated cities. For example, in your case, if you are 2 hours drive away at 8:00, I'd presume you are out as further than Scarborough on the east/north, and further than Etobicoke in the West/North, in that case, you can't really experience the city itself. By the time you get in for work, you don't have time to walk around the city, by the time you are done work, you have to head back home because you really don't have time to experience the city. Driving in on the weekends would eat up your whole day and you would likely leave early. You may have gotten here a bit late, but 4 years ago, a 2-bedroom was going for $1500 (with 2.9% interest raises, probably $1700 now) with a parking spot in the Midtown/Uptown area, which is admittedly outside of Toronto proper. However, it allowed you to gain both the benefits of Toronto and have a short commute if you needed it for work. Actually the last 5 years the reverse commute has been growing. Also, look at Markham for jobs in this case/moving there, as there are many companies opening there.