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Finland freezes arms export permits to Saudi Arabia and UAE over Yemen

194 points by ccnafr 8y ago

sys_64738 8y ago
Saudi Arabia is a terrorist sponsoring state that keeps women subservient. Why would we sell weaponry to such as despotic country. Sheer lunacy.
- tomohawk 8y ago
  During WW II, the US and GBR allied themselves with Russia. Russia was run by one of the biggest mass murderers ever (#2 after Mao). He violently suppressed any opposition and violated peoples rights with impunity. Even people who fled to other countries, he had hunted down and killed. Just looking at that, it makes no sense. But, looking at the bigger picture of Japan and Germany, it made sense for a time for these democracies to ally themselves with a monster. Iran is controlled by monsters, and Egypt/Saudi Arabia are the primary force opposed to them at this time.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    >Iran is controlled by monsters, and Egypt/Saudi Arabia are the primary force opposed to them at this time. Did you visit Iran and Saudi Arabia? I'd much rather be an ordinary citizen of the former than of the latter. Also, one of these two countries have a far richer history and culture, and one of the two is definitely more democratic than the other (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index).
    - tomohawk 8y ago
      In the 1930s, Germany was arguably the most cultured, best run country in the world, and yet it was run by monsters.
      - craftyguy 8y ago
        It's quite a stretch to call the Weimar Republic the 'best run country' in the 1930s..
        tomohawk 8y ago
        The Weimar Republic lasted until 1933. The 1936 olympics were a showcase of Nazi ideology and a propaganda coup. Germans were very cultured and educated - just look at all those Nobels.
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    >Iran is controlled by monsters, and Egypt/Saudi Arabia are the primary force opposed to them at this time. Can you please provide sources? Saudi Arabia is bombing innocent civilians and children in Yemen right now. Most of the 9/11 Hijackers were from Saudi Arabia too.
    - tomohawk 8y ago
      The Iranians are fighting a proxy war with the Egyptians and Saudis in Yemen. Only blaming the Saudis misses the mark. Are there bad guys in Saudi government? There sure are. Are innocents being killed, and is that horrible? You bet. But they're being killed just as much by the Iranians as the Saudis. But the Iranians are not going to stop in Yemen, and if they're not stopped, there will certainly be more innocents killed in other countries. Lets say the Saudis were completely cut off. What then? Iran gets Yemen, and then topples the Saudis? How does that help anyone out? Sometimes, there are not any really great answers. Sometimes, just like in WW II when the US and GBR allied with the Soviets, you have to do what you can to tackle the bigger problem.
      - kakaorka 8y ago
        The Egyptian presence in Yemen is simulated at best [0]. They have no troops there, they haven't fired a single bullet and nobody has even seen them after the first few days. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Yemeni_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Ye...
      - prolikewh0a 8y ago
        You still haven't provided any sources. These are all opinions at this point.
      - leesec 8y ago
        >Are innocents being killed, and is that horrible? You bet. But they're being killed just as much by the Iranians as the Saudis. This is false. It is the Saudi's who are denying essential supplies to the general populous. 14 million at risk. There is no way the Iranians would have anywhere near that sort of effect.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - BurningFrog 8y ago
    You're right that the bigger picture is the proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia, where "we" (US + UK at least) are on the Saudi side, with Russia backing Iran. This is fought is at least Syria, Iraq and Yemen, and may blow up further at any time. It's hard for me to see which side is the biggest monster. Perhaps Iran is the aggressor and Saudi + allies are just fighting back, I don't know. Note that Israel is a strong part in the anti Iran front, which means Saudi Arabia and Israel are quite friendly today. It is a new era in the Middle East, for better and for worse.
    - nickik 8y ago
      You have a ver cold war perspective. Russia is hardly backing Iran at all. Iran and Russia have ver long and complicated relationship and in actual fact Russia is often working working against Iran as well, somethimes with the US.
      - BurningFrog 8y ago
        I mostly base it on that Russia is on the same side as Iran in Syria. I admit I'm less clear on the bigger picture.
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    > Iran is controlled by monsters, To be fair, the entire planet is a freak show catalogue. A lot of countries seem like being controlled by coke monsters currently (sometimes local, other remote controlled). You see a surprising homogeneity everywhere.
  - Koshkin 8y ago
    > the US and GBR allied themselves with Russia I am not sure what is the point of bringing this up. Obviously they had no choice, since they were at war with Germany. Today the situation is completely different.
mrweasel 8y ago
Germany and Norway already did this in October and earlier this month. Denmark announced the same yesterday. Honestly it doesn't matter much if the US doesn't do the same.
- DarkManZero 8y ago
  I totally agree with you.
- yaht 8y ago
  The US is controlled by its "greatest ally", so there are 0 chances of this happening.
  - vinay427 8y ago
    > The US is controlled by its greatest ally I understand what you're trying to say, but this is fundamentally backwards. The US makes a conscious decision out of supposed self-interest to align itself with a state despite its history of instigating and spreading conflicts. It is not "controlled" by anyone. Saying so would imply that the US is somehow less responsible for continuing to support the state, and that the state somehow has ultimate control over US policy, neither of which are true.
    - yaht 8y ago
      A great number of politicians, judges, etc. of the US are basically plants that are there only to ensure the survival of said greatest ally; they don't care at all about the US or its citizens and sometimes are even openly hostile to them.
      - Bootvis 8y ago
        Downvoted, this kind of conspiracy thinking needs to be backed up by facts or at least some somewhat credible sources.
        8y ago
GordonS 8y ago
Meanwhile in the UK, our leaders remain ever unscrupulous[1]. The UK is the 2nd biggest exporter of arma to Saudi, selling £1.1 billion (~$1.4 billion) of military goods in 2017. Why do we keep selling weapons to such a repressive regime? £1 billion is not that much in the greater scheme of things - so what's the bigger picture that could possible justify the UKs actions? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/23/uk-hides-arms-trade-saudi-arabia--yemen https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/23/uk-hides-arms-...
- sys_64738 8y ago
  The brits probably need the hard currency given what brexit is doing to your economy. Blame the vote leavers as I’m sure if they were to remain then the brits would have an arms embargo to Saudi by now.
  - ptaipale 8y ago
    If you look at actual numbers, brexit isn't doing much to the British economy. There's plenty of doomsaying in oral and written communications, but when people and institutions put their actual money in the game, the expectation seems to be that there's going to be life as usual.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      Though it hasn’t happened yet, and there is no real plan and total disarray. It’s not a reassuring situation.
      - ptaipale 8y ago
        I understand why people are distressed, because the press and other media make a lot of noise about imminent disaster. However, markets price in ahead of time any impacts that they foresee, and we can observe that - Britain's government debt yields, e.g. 2 and 10 year bonds, remain at similar levels to pre Brexit vote, and unlike before 2016, 10-year yields are now lower than US 10-year yields - in currencies, the GBP has remained fairly stable against EUR and USD. I have no doubt that there will be some impact. I did not wish Brexit to happen. But I see some positive signs as well (mainly in that this forces EU leaders to sober up).
mabbo 8y ago
It's a question of what your morals cost. For Finland, the cost of doing the right thing is a few tens of millions of dollars. For America, it's billions more. And America is willing to sell it's morals for that amount of money.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- growlist 8y ago
  Indeed, the paltry sums involved undermine the gesture pretty much completely. If Finland are really serious, why not stop all exports to SA?
  - ptaipale 8y ago
    The U.S. economy is about 75-80 times bigger than Finland (due to sheer size of country). A few tens of millions (35 M$) is for Finland about as significant as 2,7 billion $ would be for U.S. Not insignificant.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    >If Finland are really serious, why not stop all exports to SA? Some products are primary intended to keep people alive: food, energy, medicines… Some other aren't: tanks, missiles… That's why.
    - growlist 8y ago
      So then given the utterly insignificant amounts of arms Finland sells, the impact will also be utterly insignificant. All Finland gets is the chance to virtue signal. wow such virtue, so moral etc.
- will4274 8y ago
  I agree with your first sentence, but it's not just about monetary cost. Saudi Arabia is Iran's strongest rival in the Middle East. Finland cutting off arms sales has negligible geo-political cost. But the US cutting off arms sales might have the impact of strengthening Iran and thereby making a homocidal near nuclear power whose leaders have advocated genocide in the past decade the most powerful country in the region.
Roy_G_Biv 8y ago
Why now? Patria AMVs sold to the UAE have been spotted in Yemen-bound convoys at least as far back as August.
dorfsmay 8y ago
Interesting how countries and people finally wake up to the situation in Yemen. Interesting article about it: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jamal-khashoggi-murder-saudi-arabia-yemen-civil-war-uk-arms-sales-criticism-a8610076.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jamal-khashoggi-murder-...
- eternalban 8y ago
  Reluctance to go ahead with ARAMCO IPO; surprise move on Qatar; buying S400 from Russia; neutralizing "Bandar Bush" elements; etc. Enough reason to let the "Kingdom" know who and how the world is run.
justaaron 8y ago
Good. Now let's get UK, France, Spain, and the others still selling arms to the Saudis and UAE to ALSO stop.
- umichguy 8y ago
  The UK? Not gonna happen.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    OP made an appeal, not a prediction. Of course nothing political happens if it isn't asked for first.
redsymbol 8y ago
The situation in Yemen is complex. As I understand it, the civil war essentially started in 2014, when a group called the Houthis attempted a military coup, to seize control of the government over the democratic election process. These are the "rebels" referred to in the article. Saudi Arabia has been supporting the government of Hadi, the former vice president who became president in Yemen's 2012 election. Meanwhile, Iran has been giving support to the Houthis. Again, the situation is complex, but it seems to me that without SA's military support, the coup would have been successful in seizing control of the country. Imagine SA withdraws all military support, and the Houthis are successful in taking over the country by force. Is the world now a better place? Maybe. Maybe not. I sincerely don't know. But if you felt intense anger while reading this article... I have to point out that you probably don't know, either. The humanitarian needs in Yemen are immense, and heartbreaking; it's the poorest nation on the Arabian peninsula, and it's essentially run out of water. Maybe it's better to let the coup succeed just to allow some stability and rebuilding. Just don't have any illusions on what you're actually supporting. EDIT: And if you don't know what to think yet, or what's best for everyone... be willing to say that to yourself.
- GuardianCaveman 8y ago
  I agree that it is complex and your assessment seems accurate but the problem with Saudi is not that they are opposing the houthis but their tactics of attacking supply lines and bombing indiscriminately. They refuse to use ground troops because they rely on Pakistan for an army and Pakistan does not want to invade. So they continue to do airstrikes on any and all targets like hospitals, kindergartens, food supply caravans, power stations etc and they don’t seem to care. I worked closely with their reconnaissance aircraft as a foreigner and it’s funny that when they found out I was in Afghanistan they lectured me about killing kids but they are 100 times worse. I eventually left because I was disgusted with the way they conducted that war and did not want to be a part of it regardless of it if supported US foreign policy goals. So if the Houthis win I don’t know if it’s better long term but at least 5 year olds won’t get blown up on their way to school but a Saudi pilot.
  - redsymbol 8y ago
m23khan 8y ago
We Pakistanis tried to control Afghan's politics and meddle in their domestic affairs. And it has come back to haunt us and thankfully, (at surface level) it seems Government and masses in Pakistan have realized not to meddle in another Nation's affairs. Hopefully Saudis (and Iranians) realize this as well - let Yemen be, provide humanitarian aid to them and allow dust to be settled there. only Yemenis can solve problems of Yemen. Look at Somalia - 20-25 years of bloody internal conflict but now they are starting to turn a corner. Had other Nations meddled with Somalia in the extent similar to Afghanistan or Yemen, it would have been much worse off.

194 points by ccnafr 8y ago

Saudi Arabia is a terrorist sponsoring state that keeps women subservient. Why would we sell weaponry to such as despotic country. Sheer lunacy.

tomohawk 8y ago
During WW II, the US and GBR allied themselves with Russia. Russia was run by one of the biggest mass murderers ever (#2 after Mao). He violently suppressed any opposition and violated peoples rights with impunity. Even people who fled to other countries, he had hunted down and killed. Just looking at that, it makes no sense. But, looking at the bigger picture of Japan and Germany, it made sense for a time for these democracies to ally themselves with a monster. Iran is controlled by monsters, and Egypt/Saudi Arabia are the primary force opposed to them at this time.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  >Iran is controlled by monsters, and Egypt/Saudi Arabia are the primary force opposed to them at this time. Did you visit Iran and Saudi Arabia? I'd much rather be an ordinary citizen of the former than of the latter. Also, one of these two countries have a far richer history and culture, and one of the two is definitely more democratic than the other (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index).
  - tomohawk 8y ago
    In the 1930s, Germany was arguably the most cultured, best run country in the world, and yet it was run by monsters.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      It's quite a stretch to call the Weimar Republic the 'best run country' in the 1930s..
      - tomohawk 8y ago
        The Weimar Republic lasted until 1933. The 1936 olympics were a showcase of Nazi ideology and a propaganda coup. Germans were very cultured and educated - just look at all those Nobels.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  >Iran is controlled by monsters, and Egypt/Saudi Arabia are the primary force opposed to them at this time. Can you please provide sources? Saudi Arabia is bombing innocent civilians and children in Yemen right now. Most of the 9/11 Hijackers were from Saudi Arabia too.
  - tomohawk 8y ago
    The Iranians are fighting a proxy war with the Egyptians and Saudis in Yemen. Only blaming the Saudis misses the mark. Are there bad guys in Saudi government? There sure are. Are innocents being killed, and is that horrible? You bet. But they're being killed just as much by the Iranians as the Saudis. But the Iranians are not going to stop in Yemen, and if they're not stopped, there will certainly be more innocents killed in other countries. Lets say the Saudis were completely cut off. What then? Iran gets Yemen, and then topples the Saudis? How does that help anyone out? Sometimes, there are not any really great answers. Sometimes, just like in WW II when the US and GBR allied with the Soviets, you have to do what you can to tackle the bigger problem.
    - kakaorka 8y ago
      The Egyptian presence in Yemen is simulated at best [0]. They have no troops there, they haven't fired a single bullet and nobody has even seen them after the first few days. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Yemeni_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Ye...
    - prolikewh0a 8y ago
      You still haven't provided any sources. These are all opinions at this point.
    - leesec 8y ago
      >Are innocents being killed, and is that horrible? You bet. But they're being killed just as much by the Iranians as the Saudis. This is false. It is the Saudi's who are denying essential supplies to the general populous. 14 million at risk. There is no way the Iranians would have anywhere near that sort of effect.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  You're right that the bigger picture is the proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia, where "we" (US + UK at least) are on the Saudi side, with Russia backing Iran. This is fought is at least Syria, Iraq and Yemen, and may blow up further at any time. It's hard for me to see which side is the biggest monster. Perhaps Iran is the aggressor and Saudi + allies are just fighting back, I don't know. Note that Israel is a strong part in the anti Iran front, which means Saudi Arabia and Israel are quite friendly today. It is a new era in the Middle East, for better and for worse.
  - nickik 8y ago
    You have a ver cold war perspective. Russia is hardly backing Iran at all. Iran and Russia have ver long and complicated relationship and in actual fact Russia is often working working against Iran as well, somethimes with the US.
    - BurningFrog 8y ago
      I mostly base it on that Russia is on the same side as Iran in Syria. I admit I'm less clear on the bigger picture.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  > Iran is controlled by monsters, To be fair, the entire planet is a freak show catalogue. A lot of countries seem like being controlled by coke monsters currently (sometimes local, other remote controlled). You see a surprising homogeneity everywhere.
- Koshkin 8y ago
  > the US and GBR allied themselves with Russia I am not sure what is the point of bringing this up. Obviously they had no choice, since they were at war with Germany. Today the situation is completely different.

mrweasel 8y ago

Germany and Norway already did this in October and earlier this month. Denmark announced the same yesterday. Honestly it doesn't matter much if the US doesn't do the same.

DarkManZero 8y ago
I totally agree with you.
yaht 8y ago
The US is controlled by its "greatest ally", so there are 0 chances of this happening.
- vinay427 8y ago
  > The US is controlled by its greatest ally I understand what you're trying to say, but this is fundamentally backwards. The US makes a conscious decision out of supposed self-interest to align itself with a state despite its history of instigating and spreading conflicts. It is not "controlled" by anyone. Saying so would imply that the US is somehow less responsible for continuing to support the state, and that the state somehow has ultimate control over US policy, neither of which are true.
  - yaht 8y ago
    A great number of politicians, judges, etc. of the US are basically plants that are there only to ensure the survival of said greatest ally; they don't care at all about the US or its citizens and sometimes are even openly hostile to them.
    - Bootvis 8y ago
      Downvoted, this kind of conspiracy thinking needs to be backed up by facts or at least some somewhat credible sources.
      - 8y ago

GordonS 8y ago

Meanwhile in the UK, our leaders remain ever unscrupulous[1]. The UK is the 2nd biggest exporter of arma to Saudi, selling £1.1 billion (~$1.4 billion) of military goods in 2017. Why do we keep selling weapons to such a repressive regime? £1 billion is not that much in the greater scheme of things - so what's the bigger picture that could possible justify the UKs actions? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/23/uk-hides-arms-trade-saudi-arabia--yemen https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/23/uk-hides-arms-...

sys_64738 8y ago
The brits probably need the hard currency given what brexit is doing to your economy. Blame the vote leavers as I’m sure if they were to remain then the brits would have an arms embargo to Saudi by now.
- ptaipale 8y ago
  If you look at actual numbers, brexit isn't doing much to the British economy. There's plenty of doomsaying in oral and written communications, but when people and institutions put their actual money in the game, the expectation seems to be that there's going to be life as usual.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    Though it hasn’t happened yet, and there is no real plan and total disarray. It’s not a reassuring situation.
    - ptaipale 8y ago
      I understand why people are distressed, because the press and other media make a lot of noise about imminent disaster. However, markets price in ahead of time any impacts that they foresee, and we can observe that - Britain's government debt yields, e.g. 2 and 10 year bonds, remain at similar levels to pre Brexit vote, and unlike before 2016, 10-year yields are now lower than US 10-year yields - in currencies, the GBP has remained fairly stable against EUR and USD. I have no doubt that there will be some impact. I did not wish Brexit to happen. But I see some positive signs as well (mainly in that this forces EU leaders to sober up).

mabbo 8y ago

It's a question of what your morals cost. For Finland, the cost of doing the right thing is a few tens of millions of dollars. For America, it's billions more. And America is willing to sell it's morals for that amount of money.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
growlist 8y ago
Indeed, the paltry sums involved undermine the gesture pretty much completely. If Finland are really serious, why not stop all exports to SA?
- ptaipale 8y ago
  The U.S. economy is about 75-80 times bigger than Finland (due to sheer size of country). A few tens of millions (35 M$) is for Finland about as significant as 2,7 billion $ would be for U.S. Not insignificant.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  >If Finland are really serious, why not stop all exports to SA? Some products are primary intended to keep people alive: food, energy, medicines… Some other aren't: tanks, missiles… That's why.
  - growlist 8y ago
    So then given the utterly insignificant amounts of arms Finland sells, the impact will also be utterly insignificant. All Finland gets is the chance to virtue signal. wow such virtue, so moral etc.
will4274 8y ago
I agree with your first sentence, but it's not just about monetary cost. Saudi Arabia is Iran's strongest rival in the Middle East. Finland cutting off arms sales has negligible geo-political cost. But the US cutting off arms sales might have the impact of strengthening Iran and thereby making a homocidal near nuclear power whose leaders have advocated genocide in the past decade the most powerful country in the region.

Roy_G_Biv 8y ago

Why now? Patria AMVs sold to the UAE have been spotted in Yemen-bound convoys at least as far back as August.

dorfsmay 8y ago

Interesting how countries and people finally wake up to the situation in Yemen. Interesting article about it: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jamal-khashoggi-murder-saudi-arabia-yemen-civil-war-uk-arms-sales-criticism-a8610076.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jamal-khashoggi-murder-...

eternalban 8y ago
Reluctance to go ahead with ARAMCO IPO; surprise move on Qatar; buying S400 from Russia; neutralizing "Bandar Bush" elements; etc. Enough reason to let the "Kingdom" know who and how the world is run.

justaaron 8y ago

Good. Now let's get UK, France, Spain, and the others still selling arms to the Saudis and UAE to ALSO stop.

umichguy 8y ago
The UK? Not gonna happen.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  OP made an appeal, not a prediction. Of course nothing political happens if it isn't asked for first.

redsymbol 8y ago

The situation in Yemen is complex. As I understand it, the civil war essentially started in 2014, when a group called the Houthis attempted a military coup, to seize control of the government over the democratic election process. These are the "rebels" referred to in the article. Saudi Arabia has been supporting the government of Hadi, the former vice president who became president in Yemen's 2012 election. Meanwhile, Iran has been giving support to the Houthis. Again, the situation is complex, but it seems to me that without SA's military support, the coup would have been successful in seizing control of the country. Imagine SA withdraws all military support, and the Houthis are successful in taking over the country by force. Is the world now a better place? Maybe. Maybe not. I sincerely don't know. But if you felt intense anger while reading this article... I have to point out that you probably don't know, either. The humanitarian needs in Yemen are immense, and heartbreaking; it's the poorest nation on the Arabian peninsula, and it's essentially run out of water. Maybe it's better to let the coup succeed just to allow some stability and rebuilding. Just don't have any illusions on what you're actually supporting. EDIT: And if you don't know what to think yet, or what's best for everyone... be willing to say that to yourself.

GuardianCaveman 8y ago
I agree that it is complex and your assessment seems accurate but the problem with Saudi is not that they are opposing the houthis but their tactics of attacking supply lines and bombing indiscriminately. They refuse to use ground troops because they rely on Pakistan for an army and Pakistan does not want to invade. So they continue to do airstrikes on any and all targets like hospitals, kindergartens, food supply caravans, power stations etc and they don’t seem to care. I worked closely with their reconnaissance aircraft as a foreigner and it’s funny that when they found out I was in Afghanistan they lectured me about killing kids but they are 100 times worse. I eventually left because I was disgusted with the way they conducted that war and did not want to be a part of it regardless of it if supported US foreign policy goals. So if the Houthis win I don’t know if it’s better long term but at least 5 year olds won’t get blown up on their way to school but a Saudi pilot.
- redsymbol 8y ago

m23khan 8y ago

We Pakistanis tried to control Afghan's politics and meddle in their domestic affairs. And it has come back to haunt us and thankfully, (at surface level) it seems Government and masses in Pakistan have realized not to meddle in another Nation's affairs. Hopefully Saudis (and Iranians) realize this as well - let Yemen be, provide humanitarian aid to them and allow dust to be settled there. only Yemenis can solve problems of Yemen. Look at Somalia - 20-25 years of bloody internal conflict but now they are starting to turn a corner. Had other Nations meddled with Somalia in the extent similar to Afghanistan or Yemen, it would have been much worse off.