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Under capitalism automation is not really a good thing for humanity. Loads of middle class jobs disappeared due to it, leaving millions with lower wages and a m

Under capitalism automation is not really a good thing for humanity. Loads of middle class jobs disappeared due to it, leaving millions with lower wages and a more insecure life. But automation is good for the average HN reader I guess, for now. One day it will come for them too.

nec4b 8y ago
It's great to have communist countries like North Korea or Cuba for comparison how well full employment without automatization works for people there.
- vidarh 8y ago
  The irony of calling them communist, is that Marx argued that socialism/communism first becomes possible when capitalism has driven efficiency to a level where there is enough wealth for everyone coupled with mass unemployment. He warned strongly against the consequences of trying without it, arguing that it would just restart the class struggle by spreading poverty around.
dmichulke 8y ago
A thought experiment: What would happen if we remove all "automated" things like factories, robots, cars. We'd have lots of things to do, labor shortages everywhere. But would you think the median worker would be better off? And wouldn't you think that in the 18th century the automation of manual work through factories should have resulted in huge unemployment today? You need to reconcile these thoughts with your claims before you dismiss automation. My own take is: "Automation" leads to lower prices for everyone. In a sense, automation is the thing that increases your purchasing power by letting you buy more (of the automated good) for the same money. It's not a wage increase but its effect is the same for the good/service automated. And yes, a manual worker might lose his job, but all others + all coming generations and there included his personal offspring will benefit from that. Now what's better in the long run?
- benj111 8y ago
  The great thing about automation is that it allows us to make so much more with each unit of labour, so we can afford so much stuff. The downside of automation is that we have to keep on buying more stuff so that everyone has a job, and to keep the wheels turning. Automation of all those jobs in the 18th century did lead to everyone getting better off and that was good because most people didn't have enough. Today (in the west at least) most people have enough. There's a limit to how much stuff you can buy, money is increasingly directed into property etc. And the jobs are becoming increasing less useful (service jobs growth, marketing job growth v traditional blue collar, white collar job stagnation / shrinkage). To continue your thought experiment. What is everything were automated? No one would have a job to buy anything. I guess that's where the basic income crowd is coming from. Its unclear how you get from here to there though.
CryptoPunk 8y ago
The middle class has seen wages increase 20 fold since the early 1800s due to automation. It's the single biggest source of quality of life improvements.
apatters 8y ago
Both viewpoints are half correct. Automation eliminates low skilled, low paying jobs and replaces them with a smaller number of higher skilled, higher paying jobs. Whether this is good for society or not depends on the difference between the rate of automation and the rate of skills gain within the population. So the better your education system, the more fluid your labor pool etc. the faster your society can absorb changes caused by automation and move everyone up the wages and skills ladder. But too much automation in the absence of these things will lead to unemployment and social unrest. Automation also tends to concentrate wealth within the owner/capital class and this can become a problem if left unchecked.

nec4b 8y ago

It's great to have communist countries like North Korea or Cuba for comparison how well full employment without automatization works for people there.

vidarh 8y ago
The irony of calling them communist, is that Marx argued that socialism/communism first becomes possible when capitalism has driven efficiency to a level where there is enough wealth for everyone coupled with mass unemployment. He warned strongly against the consequences of trying without it, arguing that it would just restart the class struggle by spreading poverty around.

dmichulke 8y ago

A thought experiment: What would happen if we remove all "automated" things like factories, robots, cars. We'd have lots of things to do, labor shortages everywhere. But would you think the median worker would be better off? And wouldn't you think that in the 18th century the automation of manual work through factories should have resulted in huge unemployment today? You need to reconcile these thoughts with your claims before you dismiss automation. My own take is: "Automation" leads to lower prices for everyone. In a sense, automation is the thing that increases your purchasing power by letting you buy more (of the automated good) for the same money. It's not a wage increase but its effect is the same for the good/service automated. And yes, a manual worker might lose his job, but all others + all coming generations and there included his personal offspring will benefit from that. Now what's better in the long run?

benj111 8y ago
The great thing about automation is that it allows us to make so much more with each unit of labour, so we can afford so much stuff. The downside of automation is that we have to keep on buying more stuff so that everyone has a job, and to keep the wheels turning. Automation of all those jobs in the 18th century did lead to everyone getting better off and that was good because most people didn't have enough. Today (in the west at least) most people have enough. There's a limit to how much stuff you can buy, money is increasingly directed into property etc. And the jobs are becoming increasing less useful (service jobs growth, marketing job growth v traditional blue collar, white collar job stagnation / shrinkage). To continue your thought experiment. What is everything were automated? No one would have a job to buy anything. I guess that's where the basic income crowd is coming from. Its unclear how you get from here to there though.

CryptoPunk 8y ago

The middle class has seen wages increase 20 fold since the early 1800s due to automation. It's the single biggest source of quality of life improvements.

apatters 8y ago

Both viewpoints are half correct. Automation eliminates low skilled, low paying jobs and replaces them with a smaller number of higher skilled, higher paying jobs. Whether this is good for society or not depends on the difference between the rate of automation and the rate of skills gain within the population. So the better your education system, the more fluid your labor pool etc. the faster your society can absorb changes caused by automation and move everyone up the wages and skills ladder. But too much automation in the absence of these things will lead to unemployment and social unrest. Automation also tends to concentrate wealth within the owner/capital class and this can become a problem if left unchecked.