6 ms·

Pardon my ignorance here. Putting the US or other five eyes countries on the same plane as China is a false equivalency. People can at least take it to streets

Pardon my ignorance here. Putting the US or other five eyes countries on the same plane as China is a false equivalency. People can at least take it to streets and demand facts, which is not possible when we are talking about China. Hypothetically, if Apple and Samsung made their phones in the US or other five eyes countries we can assume some level of oversight on their practices , which is not quite possible in China.

paulryanrogers 8y ago
> People can at least take it to streets and demand facts, which is not possible when we are talking about China. I agree the US is better about permitting public protest. But if the directors of these US agencies can lie to Congress[0] without consequence then does it really matter? [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/01/27/darrell-issa-james-clapper-lied-to-congress-about-nsa-and-should-be-fired/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/01/27...
- whatshisface 8y ago
  They wouldn't be allowed to lie to Congress if Congress didn't allow them to lie, and Congress wouldn't allow them to lie if the American people expressed a clear desire for their elected government to reign the appointed organs back in. That's what the protests are for. There is a lot of institutional momentum in the US to keep doing bad things, including a crushing blanket of a media that cares a lot more about pop culture than anything else. But it is nice to not fear much for writing this.
  - SuoDuanDao 8y ago
    What would you consider expressing a clear desire to look like? The two examples that come to mind for me, the TEA party and Occupy Wall Street, both got shut down with extreme prejudice and enthusiastic support from half the electorate.
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      Occupy and the Tea party weren't issues, they were groups. Groups are subject to many dangers, internally and externally, that have little to do with their goals. "Put our representatives back in charge," could be carried to Washington by anybody from a billionaire to Bernie Sanders.
  - roenxi 8y ago
    > They wouldn't be allowed to lie to Congress if Congress didn't allow them to lie That seems like a pretty radical position to take - I'd bet that Congress has a rule in place saying "you can't lie to us". How are you justifying that as a stance? What more do you want Congress to do? And how will that be different from trial by media?
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      >What more do you want Congress to do? Congress could investigate, or keep talking about it, or push for something to be done to negatively impact the parties that did it, or anything really. Even the slightest deviation from the present course of "don't say out loud that it happened and hope everyone forgets," would be a welcome show of some backbone. >And how will that be different from trial by media? Look at history to see the many things Congress can do when someone tries to pull something on them. They have options, they just aren't taking any.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  > But if the directors of these US agencies can lie to Congress[0] Are China's counterparts held accountable by China's people? And no, China's communist party is not China's people.
withhighprod 8y ago
Not true. If you have done enough lobbying and managed to use “guanxi” correctly in China, you got pretty much all information you need. Of course if your social class is lower enough it’s hard to do( and it’s not easier in USA either)
bb88 8y ago
To be fair, it's really the level of independent journalism and free speech in the US that makes it better than China. Yes, the NSA has done terrible things in the past. The only way we know about it is because of journalism.
- sschueller 8y ago
  But sadly those journalist and whistle-blowers are being hounded by the US government and threatened with death by high up government officials.
  - bb88 8y ago
    Edward Snowden, whistleblower, yes. Glenn Greenwald, reporter, no.
- simiones 8y ago
  Mostly we know about it because of now jailed or internationally-wanted 'traitors' or 'enemies of state'; the journalists who agreed to publish the initial stories are few and far between.

paulryanrogers 8y ago

> People can at least take it to streets and demand facts, which is not possible when we are talking about China. I agree the US is better about permitting public protest. But if the directors of these US agencies can lie to Congress[0] without consequence then does it really matter? [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/01/27/darrell-issa-james-clapper-lied-to-congress-about-nsa-and-should-be-fired/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/01/27...

whatshisface 8y ago
They wouldn't be allowed to lie to Congress if Congress didn't allow them to lie, and Congress wouldn't allow them to lie if the American people expressed a clear desire for their elected government to reign the appointed organs back in. That's what the protests are for. There is a lot of institutional momentum in the US to keep doing bad things, including a crushing blanket of a media that cares a lot more about pop culture than anything else. But it is nice to not fear much for writing this.
- SuoDuanDao 8y ago
  What would you consider expressing a clear desire to look like? The two examples that come to mind for me, the TEA party and Occupy Wall Street, both got shut down with extreme prejudice and enthusiastic support from half the electorate.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    Occupy and the Tea party weren't issues, they were groups. Groups are subject to many dangers, internally and externally, that have little to do with their goals. "Put our representatives back in charge," could be carried to Washington by anybody from a billionaire to Bernie Sanders.
- roenxi 8y ago
  > They wouldn't be allowed to lie to Congress if Congress didn't allow them to lie That seems like a pretty radical position to take - I'd bet that Congress has a rule in place saying "you can't lie to us". How are you justifying that as a stance? What more do you want Congress to do? And how will that be different from trial by media?
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    >What more do you want Congress to do? Congress could investigate, or keep talking about it, or push for something to be done to negatively impact the parties that did it, or anything really. Even the slightest deviation from the present course of "don't say out loud that it happened and hope everyone forgets," would be a welcome show of some backbone. >And how will that be different from trial by media? Look at history to see the many things Congress can do when someone tries to pull something on them. They have options, they just aren't taking any.
geezerjay 8y ago
> But if the directors of these US agencies can lie to Congress[0] Are China's counterparts held accountable by China's people? And no, China's communist party is not China's people.

withhighprod 8y ago

Not true. If you have done enough lobbying and managed to use “guanxi” correctly in China, you got pretty much all information you need. Of course if your social class is lower enough it’s hard to do( and it’s not easier in USA either)

bb88 8y ago

To be fair, it's really the level of independent journalism and free speech in the US that makes it better than China. Yes, the NSA has done terrible things in the past. The only way we know about it is because of journalism.

sschueller 8y ago
But sadly those journalist and whistle-blowers are being hounded by the US government and threatened with death by high up government officials.
- bb88 8y ago
  Edward Snowden, whistleblower, yes. Glenn Greenwald, reporter, no.
simiones 8y ago
Mostly we know about it because of now jailed or internationally-wanted 'traitors' or 'enemies of state'; the journalists who agreed to publish the initial stories are few and far between.