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I have an immense dislike for the whole PR industry, and to a certain extent it astounds me that it's even legal. PR boils down to manipulation of public opini

I have an immense dislike for the whole PR industry, and to a certain extent it astounds me that it's even legal. PR boils down to manipulation of public opinion that can't be traced back to the source easily. They are also used for things that would be too dirty / illegal to touch for a company itself, like fake reviews and fake online comments propagating a certain view. I have long thought that there should be a public registry where you have to announce when and for what purpose you have hired a PR firm.

munk-a 8y ago
I absolutely agree, and it falls in the same category as marketing. If a person is a marketer they are devoting their lives to manipulating the minds of others and that's just terrible.
- the_duke 8y ago
  I see PR as being much, much worse. I also dislike marketing. It is manipulation that mostly works on a subconscious level, circumventing your rational thought. But with marketing, at least it's obvious who the source is, and you can make a conscious effort to avoid it. With PR, where pushing highly biased news articles on various news outlets is common, it's much harder.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  I don't disagree that many(most? all?) successful marketing people approach the task in this fashion, but I wonder if we really have to do it that way. For example, take the "community manager" role that is popular in some companies. This is a full on marketing role. The goal is to create good feelings about the product and build a community that people want to join around it. However, I don't see anything wrong with that per se. In fact, in many niche markets (craft beer is a good example), the community manager tries to promote the entire industry (to be fair, in the craft beer industry, converting the average mega beer drinker to craft beer is good for business). Often, these people are working 100% in concert with the desires of the consumer. Also having to do with beer (hmmm... coincidence?), if you've ever spent time in the UK you know about the Weatherspoon pub chain. It is a massive company, with pubs everywhere. It undercuts the prices of the local, independent pubs and provides a kind of homogenised experience. But, good grief it does a good job. Every pub has an amazing selection of real ale in good condition -- sometimes at half the price of competing pubs. They have real ale and cider "festivals" and promote small breweries. They lobby the government for lower taxes on beer and work with the rest of the industry to create desirable business conditions for pubs (against the rising tide of cafes, wine bars and clubs). They save listed buildings and turn them into interesting venues. It's all of these actions that makes you think, "I just can't be against these guys, even if I want to support small independent pubs". I often wonder where the pub industry in the UK would be without Weatherspoons. So I think it's possible to take your job as a marketing person and use it as an opportunity to do something good (at least from some people's perspective) when it aligns with your interests. When you get it really right, I think you start working very hard to find those opportunities and ideally concentrate on them exclusively. I'm even going to go so far as to say that it's not necessarily marketers who make this a very rare occurrence. I suspect doing something like that would be a dream job for many people. I think the normal marketing job is really the reality imposed upon them by the business. The business, as a whole, is not interested in making the world a better place. They are interested in making as much money as possible. As a closing thought, I've often considered how wonderful a job in marketing or sales could be. What better job than to find someone that needs your product and introduce them to it? How amazing would it be to see people who are suffering and to think, "Hey, if they used our product instead, their life would be a lot better"? Instead, sales people are told, "Hey, we know our product sucks, but it's your job to sell it anyway. Sell the sizzle, not the steak. As long as we cut out our competitors, it doesn't matter how bad our product is. The customer will have to buy from us." It's that dynamic that makes marketing and sales a job from hell.
- ergpor 8y ago
  > If a person is a marketer they are devoting their lives to manipulating the minds of others and that's just terrible. That's ridiculous. Marketing has much broader meaning than you might think and it might be valuable activity giving information and sensible desire to the potential customers. Also you are manipulating the minds of others by posting a comment here. The claim marketing "manipulating the minds of others" is just flat out pointless.
Barrin92 8y ago
Also interesting to think about what it says about the business you're running if you need to engage in the PR tactics that are usually favoured by sinister political campaigns. One would think that a business whose noble mission is to connect the world wouldn't be in need of such marketing.
tomcam 8y ago
Odious though PR can be, in the USA it falls squarely under a unique legal doctrine known as “freedom of speech”, a privilege afforded even to commercial entities.
- Sag0Sag0 8y ago
  Except when they are manipulating the market or defaming someone.
- Jedi72 8y ago
  This doesnt violate OPs idea. You are free to say whatever you want, you just have to disclose it.
  - tomcam 8y ago
    > to a certain extent it astounds me that it's even legal. I prick up my ears when people start to talk about criminalizing speech.
    - mijamo 8y ago
      Criminalizing PR is not criminalizing speech,it is criminalizing a financial transaction. It does not mean that PR firms cannot say some things, just that they cannot be paid for it.
      - ergpor 8y ago
        "Criminalizing PR" is obviously criminalizing speech. It means you cannot post a comment on HN/reddit as a cloudflare CTO, cannot link to your commercial website on about section, etc. And if only PR firms are regulated/criminalized, FB or whatever can still operate their own PR team. Then what is the point of the law?
    - notSupplied 8y ago
      How do you feel about disclosure rules similar to those regulating stock analysts?
ergpor 8y ago
> there should be a public registry where you have to announce when and for what purpose you have hired a PR firm. Sounds like another unnecessary bullshit government regulation possibly harassing the freedom of speech on the internet.

munk-a 8y ago

I absolutely agree, and it falls in the same category as marketing. If a person is a marketer they are devoting their lives to manipulating the minds of others and that's just terrible.

the_duke 8y ago
I see PR as being much, much worse. I also dislike marketing. It is manipulation that mostly works on a subconscious level, circumventing your rational thought. But with marketing, at least it's obvious who the source is, and you can make a conscious effort to avoid it. With PR, where pushing highly biased news articles on various news outlets is common, it's much harder.
mikekchar 8y ago
I don't disagree that many(most? all?) successful marketing people approach the task in this fashion, but I wonder if we really have to do it that way. For example, take the "community manager" role that is popular in some companies. This is a full on marketing role. The goal is to create good feelings about the product and build a community that people want to join around it. However, I don't see anything wrong with that per se. In fact, in many niche markets (craft beer is a good example), the community manager tries to promote the entire industry (to be fair, in the craft beer industry, converting the average mega beer drinker to craft beer is good for business). Often, these people are working 100% in concert with the desires of the consumer. Also having to do with beer (hmmm... coincidence?), if you've ever spent time in the UK you know about the Weatherspoon pub chain. It is a massive company, with pubs everywhere. It undercuts the prices of the local, independent pubs and provides a kind of homogenised experience. But, good grief it does a good job. Every pub has an amazing selection of real ale in good condition -- sometimes at half the price of competing pubs. They have real ale and cider "festivals" and promote small breweries. They lobby the government for lower taxes on beer and work with the rest of the industry to create desirable business conditions for pubs (against the rising tide of cafes, wine bars and clubs). They save listed buildings and turn them into interesting venues. It's all of these actions that makes you think, "I just can't be against these guys, even if I want to support small independent pubs". I often wonder where the pub industry in the UK would be without Weatherspoons. So I think it's possible to take your job as a marketing person and use it as an opportunity to do something good (at least from some people's perspective) when it aligns with your interests. When you get it really right, I think you start working very hard to find those opportunities and ideally concentrate on them exclusively. I'm even going to go so far as to say that it's not necessarily marketers who make this a very rare occurrence. I suspect doing something like that would be a dream job for many people. I think the normal marketing job is really the reality imposed upon them by the business. The business, as a whole, is not interested in making the world a better place. They are interested in making as much money as possible. As a closing thought, I've often considered how wonderful a job in marketing or sales could be. What better job than to find someone that needs your product and introduce them to it? How amazing would it be to see people who are suffering and to think, "Hey, if they used our product instead, their life would be a lot better"? Instead, sales people are told, "Hey, we know our product sucks, but it's your job to sell it anyway. Sell the sizzle, not the steak. As long as we cut out our competitors, it doesn't matter how bad our product is. The customer will have to buy from us." It's that dynamic that makes marketing and sales a job from hell.
ergpor 8y ago
> If a person is a marketer they are devoting their lives to manipulating the minds of others and that's just terrible. That's ridiculous. Marketing has much broader meaning than you might think and it might be valuable activity giving information and sensible desire to the potential customers. Also you are manipulating the minds of others by posting a comment here. The claim marketing "manipulating the minds of others" is just flat out pointless.

Barrin92 8y ago

Also interesting to think about what it says about the business you're running if you need to engage in the PR tactics that are usually favoured by sinister political campaigns. One would think that a business whose noble mission is to connect the world wouldn't be in need of such marketing.

tomcam 8y ago

Odious though PR can be, in the USA it falls squarely under a unique legal doctrine known as “freedom of speech”, a privilege afforded even to commercial entities.

Sag0Sag0 8y ago
Except when they are manipulating the market or defaming someone.
Jedi72 8y ago
This doesnt violate OPs idea. You are free to say whatever you want, you just have to disclose it.
- tomcam 8y ago
  > to a certain extent it astounds me that it's even legal. I prick up my ears when people start to talk about criminalizing speech.
  - mijamo 8y ago
    Criminalizing PR is not criminalizing speech,it is criminalizing a financial transaction. It does not mean that PR firms cannot say some things, just that they cannot be paid for it.
    - ergpor 8y ago
      "Criminalizing PR" is obviously criminalizing speech. It means you cannot post a comment on HN/reddit as a cloudflare CTO, cannot link to your commercial website on about section, etc. And if only PR firms are regulated/criminalized, FB or whatever can still operate their own PR team. Then what is the point of the law?
  - notSupplied 8y ago
    How do you feel about disclosure rules similar to those regulating stock analysts?

ergpor 8y ago

> there should be a public registry where you have to announce when and for what purpose you have hired a PR firm. Sounds like another unnecessary bullshit government regulation possibly harassing the freedom of speech on the internet.