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> All this tells you is if the candidate can code. If you want that, give them a test, look at their Github history (if they have it). I try to get all informa

> All this tells you is if the candidate can code. If you want that, give them a test, look at their Github history (if they have it). I try to get all information I can about the candidate, including reading through their Github or Linkedin profile, or looking them up on StackOverflow or on social media just to get a deeper understanding of what kind of person (and coder) they are. But I was consistently surprised by how difficult it may be to find relevant information about a candidate before an interview. Many do not include links to their code (Github, Gitlab, Bitbucket, whatever, just show me how you think) in their resumes (admittedly, we did not have it as a hard requirement, but one would assume that a programmer would include them). Resumes often contain spelling or grammar mistakes that bias me against the applicants (and I need to tell myself that these mistakes don't necessarily matter). Our process is a screening interview over Skype with a simple coding challenge. Followed by an hour-long in-person interview, also coding-heavy, but relevant to the work that the candidate will be doing (no brain teasers, no CS algorithms). I feel that at least this gives me some objective datapoints to assess and rank the candidates. Asking about previous work or interests in and out of software feels too subjective to be useful for subsequent comparison, and is prone to false-positives (we once talked to a candidate with an interesting background and all the right buzzwords in their social network who did not even pass the screening challenge). Although we certainly do ask.

watwut 8y ago
Most developers I know don't have github account or use it as place to dump half baked unfinished projects and ideas (as a free backup essentially). That is why it is so hard to find it. If you job is really coding most of the time and challenging/interesting enough on itself, you have less reason to do projects on the side (and it might not be effective use of time). Same for those working in competitive positions where either maximum time or output is expected.
- azangru 8y ago
  Sure, I get that. It's just a great way to learn more about a candidate's strengths, interests, obsessions, etc. before an interview.
- crdoconnor 8y ago
  On the flip side, I have a solid GitHub and as far as I can tell, nobody on the hiring side has looked at it except for one guy who just saw that there was a lot of green. He didn't look beyond that though. I've been given tests galore though. Last week I was given one and told while I was halfway through it that somebody had accepted an outstanding offer. Hiring is so broken.
scarface74 8y ago
Why would you assume a developer has a Github projects? I work 50 hours a week including time I’m researching new to me technology. When I come home, I’m home and living the rest of my life.
- azangru 8y ago
  I don't. It's just helpful if they do, because through it I can learn more about them as a programmer.
bluejekyll 8y ago
> Asking about previous work or interests in and out of software feels too subjective to compare candidates to one another Yes, this is a problem in subjectivity, but I don’t think there’s any better way to judge a cadidate than their past experience. Experience is an important factor in determining leveling, etc. > we once talked to a candidate with an interesting background and all the right buzzwords in their social network who did not even pass the screening challenge Yes, and I did recommend giving a programming test. It sounds like your process worked if you were able to disqualify them early. Behavioral interviews, when done properly, are not something they can easily BS through. In fact, I find I get far more details about how they work through this process than white boarding sessions. Programming is not the only aspect of a job, understanding how they resolve conflict, disagreements about API design, how to design higher order interfaces, who they talk to and how they determine what to include in designs, how they deliver software into production, what they consider MVP; these are all things that can be discovered through behavioral interviews, and many people don’t represent these well on resumes.
ryandrake 8y ago
> Resumes often contain spelling or grammar mistakes that bias me against the applicants (and I need to tell myself that these mistakes don't necessarily matter). They absolutely matter! Spelling, grammar, and usage mistakes on a resume can be a red flag that the candidate is sloppy or careless. They didn’t even make the small effort to have a native English speaker proofread. Will they have a similar cavalier attitude about code reviews or compiler warnings? When I’m looking for programmers, I’m often looking for craftsmen (or women): people who “use good wood in the back of the cabinet” [1]. If you’re misaligning the margins on your resume or if you incorrectly use “your” instead of “you’re,” it says something about the level of polish you find acceptable. 1: https://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-obsession-with-the-quality-of-the-things-unseen/ https://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-obsession...
- azangru 8y ago
  > Spelling, grammar, and usage mistakes on a resume can be a red flag that the candidate is sloppy or careless. I wonder if there have been any studies done into this or whether it's just a popular mantra repeated in many resume guidelines. I lean towards your side, but a much more experienced colleague of mine is adamant that you cannot tell a good developer from a bad one by how clean or sloppy their resume is. And that the list of companies they worked at and their years of experience are a much better predictor of success.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    And given a large number of people in the tech industry neurodiverse you risk ignoring good candidates
gaius 8y ago
on social media just to get a deeper understanding of what kind of person (and coder) they are I think this is a bad idea. If you discover through this stalking that they are on the opposite side of some issue to you, will you be able to overcome any innate bias? Like it’s utterly irrelevant to anyone’s professionalism if in their private life they happen to be e.g. pro or anti abortion and if they never bring it up at work. And you also don’t know the context that lead them there. When I interview a candidate I deliberately know nothing apart from what’s written on the CV, I don’t even talk to my colleagues about them.
- azangru 8y ago
  > If you discover through this stalking that they are on the opposite side of some issue to you, will you be able to overcome any innate bias? Absolutely, there is this risk. On the other hand, how do you know they would never bring up this opposite side of the issue at work, or that you would not inadvertently offend them by something you say? Also, I've heard culture fit mentioned a lot, and if you are looking for someone for your team and they turn out to be on the opposite side of some issue to you, is it possible they wouldn't fit your culture? Although I completely understand what you are saying and it's a really good point.
- scarface74 8y ago
  If I find out anything about their political leanings by looking on LinkedIn, I would probably bypass them anyway. LinkedIn is not the place to argue social and political issues. If they don’t know that, they will probably not have the maturity to not talk about politics at work.
  - gaius 8y ago
    find out anything about their political leanings by looking on LinkedIn Oh you absolutely can, if you look at group memberships, volunteering experience or whatever. Sexual orientation too sometimes. Even if they don’t make a big deal of it or get into arguments or even explicitly mention it at all. Basically you are better off not even looking.

watwut 8y ago

Most developers I know don't have github account or use it as place to dump half baked unfinished projects and ideas (as a free backup essentially). That is why it is so hard to find it. If you job is really coding most of the time and challenging/interesting enough on itself, you have less reason to do projects on the side (and it might not be effective use of time). Same for those working in competitive positions where either maximum time or output is expected.

azangru 8y ago
Sure, I get that. It's just a great way to learn more about a candidate's strengths, interests, obsessions, etc. before an interview.
crdoconnor 8y ago
On the flip side, I have a solid GitHub and as far as I can tell, nobody on the hiring side has looked at it except for one guy who just saw that there was a lot of green. He didn't look beyond that though. I've been given tests galore though. Last week I was given one and told while I was halfway through it that somebody had accepted an outstanding offer. Hiring is so broken.

scarface74 8y ago

Why would you assume a developer has a Github projects? I work 50 hours a week including time I’m researching new to me technology. When I come home, I’m home and living the rest of my life.

azangru 8y ago
I don't. It's just helpful if they do, because through it I can learn more about them as a programmer.

bluejekyll 8y ago

> Asking about previous work or interests in and out of software feels too subjective to compare candidates to one another Yes, this is a problem in subjectivity, but I don’t think there’s any better way to judge a cadidate than their past experience. Experience is an important factor in determining leveling, etc. > we once talked to a candidate with an interesting background and all the right buzzwords in their social network who did not even pass the screening challenge Yes, and I did recommend giving a programming test. It sounds like your process worked if you were able to disqualify them early. Behavioral interviews, when done properly, are not something they can easily BS through. In fact, I find I get far more details about how they work through this process than white boarding sessions. Programming is not the only aspect of a job, understanding how they resolve conflict, disagreements about API design, how to design higher order interfaces, who they talk to and how they determine what to include in designs, how they deliver software into production, what they consider MVP; these are all things that can be discovered through behavioral interviews, and many people don’t represent these well on resumes.

ryandrake 8y ago

> Resumes often contain spelling or grammar mistakes that bias me against the applicants (and I need to tell myself that these mistakes don't necessarily matter). They absolutely matter! Spelling, grammar, and usage mistakes on a resume can be a red flag that the candidate is sloppy or careless. They didn’t even make the small effort to have a native English speaker proofread. Will they have a similar cavalier attitude about code reviews or compiler warnings? When I’m looking for programmers, I’m often looking for craftsmen (or women): people who “use good wood in the back of the cabinet” [1]. If you’re misaligning the margins on your resume or if you incorrectly use “your” instead of “you’re,” it says something about the level of polish you find acceptable. 1: https://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-obsession-with-the-quality-of-the-things-unseen/ https://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-obsession...

azangru 8y ago
> Spelling, grammar, and usage mistakes on a resume can be a red flag that the candidate is sloppy or careless. I wonder if there have been any studies done into this or whether it's just a popular mantra repeated in many resume guidelines. I lean towards your side, but a much more experienced colleague of mine is adamant that you cannot tell a good developer from a bad one by how clean or sloppy their resume is. And that the list of companies they worked at and their years of experience are a much better predictor of success.
- walshemj 8y ago
  And given a large number of people in the tech industry neurodiverse you risk ignoring good candidates

gaius 8y ago

on social media just to get a deeper understanding of what kind of person (and coder) they are I think this is a bad idea. If you discover through this stalking that they are on the opposite side of some issue to you, will you be able to overcome any innate bias? Like it’s utterly irrelevant to anyone’s professionalism if in their private life they happen to be e.g. pro or anti abortion and if they never bring it up at work. And you also don’t know the context that lead them there. When I interview a candidate I deliberately know nothing apart from what’s written on the CV, I don’t even talk to my colleagues about them.

azangru 8y ago
> If you discover through this stalking that they are on the opposite side of some issue to you, will you be able to overcome any innate bias? Absolutely, there is this risk. On the other hand, how do you know they would never bring up this opposite side of the issue at work, or that you would not inadvertently offend them by something you say? Also, I've heard culture fit mentioned a lot, and if you are looking for someone for your team and they turn out to be on the opposite side of some issue to you, is it possible they wouldn't fit your culture? Although I completely understand what you are saying and it's a really good point.
scarface74 8y ago
If I find out anything about their political leanings by looking on LinkedIn, I would probably bypass them anyway. LinkedIn is not the place to argue social and political issues. If they don’t know that, they will probably not have the maturity to not talk about politics at work.
- gaius 8y ago
  find out anything about their political leanings by looking on LinkedIn Oh you absolutely can, if you look at group memberships, volunteering experience or whatever. Sexual orientation too sometimes. Even if they don’t make a big deal of it or get into arguments or even explicitly mention it at all. Basically you are better off not even looking.