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Wow! Yet another article about "smart drugs" that's actually about stimulants! I give it one hour before people start mentioning Erdos and talking about ampheta

Wow! Yet another article about "smart drugs" that's actually about stimulants! I give it one hour before people start mentioning Erdos and talking about amphetamines instead. (Edit: Yup, and now I'm getting downvoted.) Here's a much better article about actual smart drugs (http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics), and its HN discussion (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959). Sorting them in terms of risk & body load is a good idea, I think. He's not kidding when he says vaso-/desmopressin messes with homeostasis. The racetams (piracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam, etc.) are probably the least risky, though I've had the best long-term effects from getting enough sleep and exercise, eating reasonably well, and not spiking and crashing on caffeine all the time. If you want to try nootropics, be informed and careful, and address the obvious factors that may be messing with your concentration first. (For me it was sleep debt and too much caffeine.)

joshu 16y ago
Modafinil isn't a stimulant.
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Then what is it? I don't have a PDR on hand, but Wikipedia says it's an "analeptic", a central nervous system stimulant used specifically to control sleepiness.
  - digitailor 16y ago
    The PDR describes its action as "unknown."
    - silentbicycle 16y ago
      Does that mean something like, "it has stimulant-like effects, but its actual mechanism is more complex and not fully understood"? Serious question, not trying to sound flippant.
      - digitailor 16y ago
        The PDR is very vague on this for a reason- they have no idea. The doctors I have spoken to about it seem to think it is not a stimulant, it is something "better." They are calling it a wakefulness promoting agent. This isn't just PR boobspeak- the docs don't equate it with speed or coke, and with good reason. It has NOT been shown to have the long term damaging effects on dopamine and serotonin receptors those drugs do.
        silentbicycle 16y ago
        Ok, thanks. IIRC, the exact mechanism for piracetam isn't fully understood either (something involving acetylcholine) - they decided to create the "nootropic" designation for it rather than classify it as a stimulant. The general consensus is that it's safe (no known LD-50, relatively mild side-effects) and makes orange juice taste horrible.
  - mmt 16y ago
    I find rxlist.com contains essentially the same (straight from the manufacturer) information as a PDR, without the bulk, expense, and latency of paper distribution.
- Construct 16y ago
  Modafinil is most certainly a stimulant. Its mode of action isn't identical to that of Adderall (amphetamine) and Ritalin (methylphenidate) but then again neither is that of caffeine, but it is still a stimulant. Adderall and Ritalin increase extra-cellular concentrations of dopamine and norepinephrine. Modafinil has been shown in many studies to elevate dopamine and norepinephrine concentrations in certain regions of the brain. It may not accomplish this as directly as Ritalin or Adderall, but the effect is there. There are additional glutamate-enhancing and GABA-reducing effects to Modafinil as well, which is perhaps where the "Modafinil is not a stimulant" misconception comes from. Still, administering a dopamine antagonist diminishes some of Modafinil's effects, much in the same way it diminishes the effects of Adderall or Ritalin. But even without delving into the pharmacology of Modafinil, how you can you possibly not call Modafinil a stimulant? It promotes wakefulness, increases concentration, and substitutes for Adderall and Ritalin in narcolepsy treatment. It is also a Schedule IV controlled substance (FYI, do not attempt to import a controlled substance, but Adrafanil is a Modafinil precursor and is not scheduled.) indicating there is even a risk of abuse.
  - digitailor 16y ago
    The PDR describes its action as "unknown," and says it is not a stimulant. This is a common error.
    - _delirium 16y ago
      The manufacturer and FDA seem to consider it at least similar to a stimulant, with stimulant-like effects and possible dependence problems typical of stimulants. From the prescribing information: In addition to its wake-promoting effects and ability to increase locomotor activity in animals, modafinil produces psychoactive and euphoric effects, alterations in mood, perception, thinking, and feelings typical of other CNS stimulants in humans. Modafinil has reinforcing properties, as evidenced by its self-administration in monkeys previously trained to self-administer cocaine. Modafinil was also partially discriminated as stimulant-like. And from the safety information label: PROVIGIL is a Schedule IV drug. PROVIGIL produces psychoactive and euphoric effects, alterations in mood, perception, thinking and feelings typical of other CNS stimulants. Physicians should follow patients closely, especially those with a history of drug and/or stimulant abuse.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- digitailor 16y ago
  Please discontinue downvoting the parent comment, it is correct. Provigil is not classed a stimulant in the PDR.
  - Construct 16y ago
    Arguing that Modafinil is not a stimulant is like arguing that alcohol is not a drug. Sure, you can twist words and definitions, but all you're doing is re-drawing the cutoff line between what is and what is not a stimulant. Modafinil is not a typical stimulant, but it provides stimulation, increases brain activity, increases self-reported measures of aggression, restlessness, and anxiety in double-blind testing, is a controlled substance with recognized abuse potential, and many of the stimulating effects are blocked by the same drugs that block the effects of stimulants. Cephalon marketing is probably eager to get away and "stimulant" moniker, but this is an argument over semantics rather than pharmacology. Modafinil is, by all measures and effects, a stimulant.
    - digitailor 16y ago
      We are talking about medical and pharmaceutical classification here. "Stimulant" has a medical meaning. Provigil has NOT been classed a stimulant, which has a specific meaning. The Physician's Drug Reference (PDR) is the last word on this, legally. That is why I keep saying it is not a stimulant. It isn't until the PDR says it is, to any medical professional. I have taken a lot of Provigil, and I understand why it has not been classified a stimulant. It does not have the physical effects of other stimulants. With the education and intelligence level being so high here on HN, I'm surprised to see inaccurate information being posited so confidently. It is NOT medically correct, and I'm not sure what the value of the non-medically correct "definition" of stimulant you are giving is supposed to be.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - Construct 16y ago
        The Physician's Drug Reference (PDR) is not the last word on this. It is literally just a desk reference, as the name implies. It isn't meant to be a definitive guide to medications. It is meant to be a quick and easy way for physicians to get an overview of a medication. The following is taken directly from the FDA's website for Modafinil ( http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2007/020717s020s013s018lbl.pdf http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2007/020... ). This information is also included in the product information sheet you receive with your prescription, and on the Provigil website. To say that Modafinil does not have the physical effects of other stimulants is not true. They are present to a lesser degree, but still exist. In addition to its wake-promoting effects and ability to increase locomotor activity in animals, modafinil produces psychoactive and euphoric effects, alterations in mood, perception, thinking, and feelings typical of other CNS stimulants in humans. Modafinil has reinforcing properties, as evidenced by its self-administration in monkeys previously trained to self-administer cocaine. Modafinil was also partially discriminated as stimulant-like.
hamilcarbarca 16y ago
This site is very informative, easily the best hub of nootropic information I have seen. There are links from each of the drugs to the medical studies, user surveys, etc. http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/43394-nootropics-thread-index/ http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/43394-nootropics-thread-i... Also read: Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics: http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-research-condensed-a-total-newbies-guide-to-nootropics/ http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-resea... Choline + Piracetam + Melatonin are what I use. All are 100% legal, nonprescription, effective and safe (according to all scientific research so far). Routine exercise has been shown repeatedly to provide tremendous gains to mental cognition. Get yourself to a baseline that includes daily cardiac exercise before jumping into the great chemical unknown. I have tried both adrafinil (legal/unregulated in USA, metabolized in vivo to modafinil) and armodafinil. The best way I could describe them is that they provide the wakefulness provided by caffeine, without the attention deficit hyperactivity. While they are certainly both interesting and effective, cost is prohibitive. Stay away from amphetamines. Regardless of the potential for physical dependence, you will rapidly develop a mental dependency on them. For a short while I had a prescription for ritalin and adderall (stopped taking them on my own accord)and can admit that they made me feel superhuman. However, they also provide a hellish overconfidence that can cripple you. I was not more creative and was ironically less focused upon the important aspects of my work. Information triage is far more difficult when everything in the world suddenly becomes worth of intense study.
fragmede 16y ago
Is there actually a medical definition of "smart drugs"? I know some seriously smart people with a serious caffeine addiction who have an IQ of about 85 before their morning coffee.
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Medical journals usually use the term "nootropics". "smart drugs" is more of a catch-all, and makes me think of Mondo 2000 (cyberpunk! fractals! subvert the dominant paradigm!) rather than medical research. And: Don't underestimate the short-term effects of caffeine withdrawl (and daily rituals). They're probably waking up mentally at -2 cups of coffee. Caffeine use seems to be more beneficial when used in small quantities over the day (a thermos of green tea* , slightly-caffeinated candy every hour or two, etc.) rather than spiking levels first thing in the morning. * And there's an amino acid in green tea, l-theanine, that seems to cancel out some of the jitteriness.
  - dejb 16y ago
    >>> Yet another article about "smart drugs" that's actually about stimulants! > "smart drugs" is more of a catch-all So which is it? It seems to me (and you apparently) that the term "smart drugs" is rightly a catch-all for anything that can enhance mental performance, including stimulants. So the original article used the term correctly and this part of your earlier criticism doesn't make sense.
    - silentbicycle 16y ago
      I'm using the term "smart drugs" to match the original post, but left it in quotes - I'd be more inclined to say "nootropics", which (intentionally) narrows the scope a bit. Every couple months a post comes up on HN about nootropics, and within a few hours it typically gets derailed by comments about how taking speed is totally awesome. I try to remind people that 1) amphetamines are not "smart drugs", they have pretty nasty side effects and are generally unsustainable, 2) if taking nootropics (or any other drugs) it's a good idea to do research first, and HN doesn't count, 3) some are much less risky than others, and 4) they'll probably get more benefits from getting enough sleep and exercise, if they aren't already.

joshu 16y ago

Modafinil isn't a stimulant.

silentbicycle 16y ago
Then what is it? I don't have a PDR on hand, but Wikipedia says it's an "analeptic", a central nervous system stimulant used specifically to control sleepiness.
- digitailor 16y ago
  The PDR describes its action as "unknown."
  - silentbicycle 16y ago
    Does that mean something like, "it has stimulant-like effects, but its actual mechanism is more complex and not fully understood"? Serious question, not trying to sound flippant.
    - digitailor 16y ago
      The PDR is very vague on this for a reason- they have no idea. The doctors I have spoken to about it seem to think it is not a stimulant, it is something "better." They are calling it a wakefulness promoting agent. This isn't just PR boobspeak- the docs don't equate it with speed or coke, and with good reason. It has NOT been shown to have the long term damaging effects on dopamine and serotonin receptors those drugs do.
      - silentbicycle 16y ago
        Ok, thanks. IIRC, the exact mechanism for piracetam isn't fully understood either (something involving acetylcholine) - they decided to create the "nootropic" designation for it rather than classify it as a stimulant. The general consensus is that it's safe (no known LD-50, relatively mild side-effects) and makes orange juice taste horrible.
- mmt 16y ago
  I find rxlist.com contains essentially the same (straight from the manufacturer) information as a PDR, without the bulk, expense, and latency of paper distribution.
Construct 16y ago
Modafinil is most certainly a stimulant. Its mode of action isn't identical to that of Adderall (amphetamine) and Ritalin (methylphenidate) but then again neither is that of caffeine, but it is still a stimulant. Adderall and Ritalin increase extra-cellular concentrations of dopamine and norepinephrine. Modafinil has been shown in many studies to elevate dopamine and norepinephrine concentrations in certain regions of the brain. It may not accomplish this as directly as Ritalin or Adderall, but the effect is there. There are additional glutamate-enhancing and GABA-reducing effects to Modafinil as well, which is perhaps where the "Modafinil is not a stimulant" misconception comes from. Still, administering a dopamine antagonist diminishes some of Modafinil's effects, much in the same way it diminishes the effects of Adderall or Ritalin. But even without delving into the pharmacology of Modafinil, how you can you possibly not call Modafinil a stimulant? It promotes wakefulness, increases concentration, and substitutes for Adderall and Ritalin in narcolepsy treatment. It is also a Schedule IV controlled substance (FYI, do not attempt to import a controlled substance, but Adrafanil is a Modafinil precursor and is not scheduled.) indicating there is even a risk of abuse.
- digitailor 16y ago
  The PDR describes its action as "unknown," and says it is not a stimulant. This is a common error.
  - _delirium 16y ago
    The manufacturer and FDA seem to consider it at least similar to a stimulant, with stimulant-like effects and possible dependence problems typical of stimulants. From the prescribing information: In addition to its wake-promoting effects and ability to increase locomotor activity in animals, modafinil produces psychoactive and euphoric effects, alterations in mood, perception, thinking, and feelings typical of other CNS stimulants in humans. Modafinil has reinforcing properties, as evidenced by its self-administration in monkeys previously trained to self-administer cocaine. Modafinil was also partially discriminated as stimulant-like. And from the safety information label: PROVIGIL is a Schedule IV drug. PROVIGIL produces psychoactive and euphoric effects, alterations in mood, perception, thinking and feelings typical of other CNS stimulants. Physicians should follow patients closely, especially those with a history of drug and/or stimulant abuse.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
digitailor 16y ago
Please discontinue downvoting the parent comment, it is correct. Provigil is not classed a stimulant in the PDR.
- Construct 16y ago
  Arguing that Modafinil is not a stimulant is like arguing that alcohol is not a drug. Sure, you can twist words and definitions, but all you're doing is re-drawing the cutoff line between what is and what is not a stimulant. Modafinil is not a typical stimulant, but it provides stimulation, increases brain activity, increases self-reported measures of aggression, restlessness, and anxiety in double-blind testing, is a controlled substance with recognized abuse potential, and many of the stimulating effects are blocked by the same drugs that block the effects of stimulants. Cephalon marketing is probably eager to get away and "stimulant" moniker, but this is an argument over semantics rather than pharmacology. Modafinil is, by all measures and effects, a stimulant.
  - digitailor 16y ago
    We are talking about medical and pharmaceutical classification here. "Stimulant" has a medical meaning. Provigil has NOT been classed a stimulant, which has a specific meaning. The Physician's Drug Reference (PDR) is the last word on this, legally. That is why I keep saying it is not a stimulant. It isn't until the PDR says it is, to any medical professional. I have taken a lot of Provigil, and I understand why it has not been classified a stimulant. It does not have the physical effects of other stimulants. With the education and intelligence level being so high here on HN, I'm surprised to see inaccurate information being posited so confidently. It is NOT medically correct, and I'm not sure what the value of the non-medically correct "definition" of stimulant you are giving is supposed to be.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - Construct 16y ago
      The Physician's Drug Reference (PDR) is not the last word on this. It is literally just a desk reference, as the name implies. It isn't meant to be a definitive guide to medications. It is meant to be a quick and easy way for physicians to get an overview of a medication. The following is taken directly from the FDA's website for Modafinil ( http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2007/020717s020s013s018lbl.pdf http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2007/020... ). This information is also included in the product information sheet you receive with your prescription, and on the Provigil website. To say that Modafinil does not have the physical effects of other stimulants is not true. They are present to a lesser degree, but still exist. In addition to its wake-promoting effects and ability to increase locomotor activity in animals, modafinil produces psychoactive and euphoric effects, alterations in mood, perception, thinking, and feelings typical of other CNS stimulants in humans. Modafinil has reinforcing properties, as evidenced by its self-administration in monkeys previously trained to self-administer cocaine. Modafinil was also partially discriminated as stimulant-like.

hamilcarbarca 16y ago

This site is very informative, easily the best hub of nootropic information I have seen. There are links from each of the drugs to the medical studies, user surveys, etc. http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/43394-nootropics-thread-index/ http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/43394-nootropics-thread-i... Also read: Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics: http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-research-condensed-a-total-newbies-guide-to-nootropics/ http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-resea... Choline + Piracetam + Melatonin are what I use. All are 100% legal, nonprescription, effective and safe (according to all scientific research so far). Routine exercise has been shown repeatedly to provide tremendous gains to mental cognition. Get yourself to a baseline that includes daily cardiac exercise before jumping into the great chemical unknown. I have tried both adrafinil (legal/unregulated in USA, metabolized in vivo to modafinil) and armodafinil. The best way I could describe them is that they provide the wakefulness provided by caffeine, without the attention deficit hyperactivity. While they are certainly both interesting and effective, cost is prohibitive. Stay away from amphetamines. Regardless of the potential for physical dependence, you will rapidly develop a mental dependency on them. For a short while I had a prescription for ritalin and adderall (stopped taking them on my own accord)and can admit that they made me feel superhuman. However, they also provide a hellish overconfidence that can cripple you. I was not more creative and was ironically less focused upon the important aspects of my work. Information triage is far more difficult when everything in the world suddenly becomes worth of intense study.

fragmede 16y ago

Is there actually a medical definition of "smart drugs"? I know some seriously smart people with a serious caffeine addiction who have an IQ of about 85 before their morning coffee.

silentbicycle 16y ago
Medical journals usually use the term "nootropics". "smart drugs" is more of a catch-all, and makes me think of Mondo 2000 (cyberpunk! fractals! subvert the dominant paradigm!) rather than medical research. And: Don't underestimate the short-term effects of caffeine withdrawl (and daily rituals). They're probably waking up mentally at -2 cups of coffee. Caffeine use seems to be more beneficial when used in small quantities over the day (a thermos of green tea* , slightly-caffeinated candy every hour or two, etc.) rather than spiking levels first thing in the morning. * And there's an amino acid in green tea, l-theanine, that seems to cancel out some of the jitteriness.
- dejb 16y ago
  >>> Yet another article about "smart drugs" that's actually about stimulants! > "smart drugs" is more of a catch-all So which is it? It seems to me (and you apparently) that the term "smart drugs" is rightly a catch-all for anything that can enhance mental performance, including stimulants. So the original article used the term correctly and this part of your earlier criticism doesn't make sense.
  - silentbicycle 16y ago
    I'm using the term "smart drugs" to match the original post, but left it in quotes - I'd be more inclined to say "nootropics", which (intentionally) narrows the scope a bit. Every couple months a post comes up on HN about nootropics, and within a few hours it typically gets derailed by comments about how taking speed is totally awesome. I try to remind people that 1) amphetamines are not "smart drugs", they have pretty nasty side effects and are generally unsustainable, 2) if taking nootropics (or any other drugs) it's a good idea to do research first, and HN doesn't count, 3) some are much less risky than others, and 4) they'll probably get more benefits from getting enough sleep and exercise, if they aren't already.