6 ms·

Pembrokeshire treasure hunter unearths Celtic chariot

80 points by yitchelle 8y ago

markvdb 8y ago
> "He emailed a picture to an expert contact who said it was part of a Celtic horse harness and dating from around 600 BC. Professionals should have taken over here. > Mr Smith, from Milford Haven, went straight back the following day. He dug down to"[...] The context layers in a dig betray is often very important. Even if he didn't destroy valuable objects, he most probably destroyed a lot of valuable information!
- sandworm101 8y ago
  But this guy was a hunter. There is a legal tension whenever a hunter finds the tip of what looks to be a big find. Should they hand it to experts, and let the experts make the further discoveries, or thouroughly document the site so they can claim the credit for each object found? There are normally negotiations, and silly theatrics whereby the original detectorist stands amongst the scientists, so they are seen to be "discovering" each piece as it is unearthed. I dont fault them. Millions might be at stake.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
    I can't fault the detectorists for wanting to be involved, it would be a real shame to discover something like this and then just hand it straight off to someone else the second things started to get interesting. A lot of these people are very passionate about history, any potential financial incentive might just be a secondary consideration.
    - sandworm101 8y ago
      In places like britain, or egypt, artifacts are literally everywhere. You cannot put a shovel in without hitting something. So, like it or not, history and science are not always the primary concern. Farmers want thier fields back asap. Teams need to move fast, often with only a single season of actual digging.
- isostatic 8y ago
  Sure But when faced with "But he had to convince the experts. One of the first he spoke to told him: "No, you're wrong. One's never been found in this part of the country."" what can you do?
  - zhte415 8y ago
    He certainly didn't give up. He seems tenacious. And that seems the right thing to have been done. > "I knew the importance of them straight away," said Mr Smith who has been prospecting for around 30 years. > "It was just instinct. I'd read all about chariot burials and just wished it could have been me, so finding this has been a privilege." The area has a long Celtic history. For readers unfamiliar perhaps with the UK or this part of the UK, some context: the stones in Stonehenge [0] were sourced from the Preseli Hills [1] several hundred kilometers away (in the part of Wales this site is). Pembrokeshire is beautiful, and somewhat rugged. Rolling hills meet sandy beaches, equally meeting treacherous cliffs. As a child, I remember frequently climbing to the peak of an iron age settlement in the morning, sort-of mixing-in with the sheep left to roam there, then after lunch, a quite long walk down to the sandy beaches it overlooked. Trying to catch shrimp in the sandy pools the escaping tide left. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preseli_Hills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preseli_Hills
    - celticninja 8y ago
      I have similar memories. I remember as kids we used to play in an old castle by the beach, its just open and anyone can go and wander around it. I travel around the UK with my kids and these days everything wants to charge an entry fee, even other castles in similar states of decay/disrepair. Easily my favourite castle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llansteffan_Castle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llansteffan_Castle
      - SamColes 8y ago
        There are free to access castle ruins and buildings of a similar age and much older all over the UK, they're hardly in short supply. Maybe you didn't intend it but this comes across as overly pessimistic. It's hardly as if every bit of history in the country has had a fence put round it to charge an entry fee. Not trying to say what you're describing doesn't exist, but the only place I can think of that I've been to that charges to see some 3ft high bits of wall would be Old Sarum, but that also has great views.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  The article says he's been finding these items for 30+ years. He may not be a "professional" archaeologist but I'm sure he's more than familiar with the process and the protocol around these things as well as the importance of not destroying valuable evidence. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, at least.
- codeulike 8y ago
  He didn't dig very far - only as far as he needed to show what it was - and left most of it for the archaeologists to dig, if you read the article
vectorEQ 8y ago
very cool find. archeologists also destroy a lot of evidence, and if they find anything that doesn't fit rpevious findings often either ignore it or are highly skeptical, which is why i assume he hd some trouble to convince this was an actual find, and had to ... dig a little deeper :D
- pulisse 8y ago
  > if they find anything that doesn't fit rpevious findings often either ignore it or are highly skeptical\ If they find something that doesn't fit previous findings, they publish on it and get tenure.
  - agsdfgsd 8y ago
    That may happen sometimes, but there's also examples of findings that contradict popular hypotheses and the person who found it gets their career destroyed and labelled as a "crank" and a "fraud" rather than getting tenure.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Tenure is not a thing in the UK.
    - gambiting 8y ago
      It might not be called tenure, but "professor for life" absolutely is a thing at British universities.
      - arethuza 8y ago
        "Despite this recent erosion of tenure in the UK, it is still practiced in most universities. Permanent contracts use the word "tenure" for lecturers who are "reappointed to the retiring age". This is equivalent to a US tenure decision" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecturer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecturer Certainly the impression I got when I worked as a contract researcher for 6 years - if you weren't on an explicitly temporary contract (which I was) then you were probably there for life if you wanted.
doitLP 8y ago
It seems like the UK government’s Treasure Act really incentivizes the right kind behavior in these situations. He found it, contacted the right people and once it gets evaluated he and the landowner are going to get a big payday. Better than making off with valuable artifacts and destroying the site. > The Treasure Act allows for a reward up to the market value of the treasure to be shared among the finder and the tenants and/or owner of the land on which the treasure was found. The amount of the reward and how it is divided among the claimants is determined by the Treasure Valuation Committee. Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996
- yitchelle 8y ago
  How is the market value determined, especially for items that have never been sold on the market before?
  - hycaria 8y ago
    Rarity, significance, state of conservation... I'm not surprised a market value can be assessed by people working in the field.
    - blbviviv 8y ago
      There is a market for these things. Perhaps the treasury acts as escrow service, with an ever so slight bias!?
  - fredley 8y ago
    Typically at some kind of auction.
- gsnedders 8y ago
  The Treasure Act 1996 only has territorial extent over E+W+NI, notably excluding Scotland, where treasure is still dealt with under (Scots) Common Law. Notably, any reward is granted purely to the finder, though there is no default right to search land one does not own (and if discovered without permission of the landowner, there have been cases where the entire reward has been awarded to the landowner); de-facto, following the English and Northern Irish law, landowners normally grant access such that any reward is split equally.
apo 8y ago
For a comedic peek into the culture around Britain's detectorists (ties in nicely with this story), check out the series Detecorists, available on Netflix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detectorists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detectorists
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

80 points by yitchelle 8y ago

> "He emailed a picture to an expert contact who said it was part of a Celtic horse harness and dating from around 600 BC. Professionals should have taken over here. > Mr Smith, from Milford Haven, went straight back the following day. He dug down to"[...] The context layers in a dig betray is often very important. Even if he didn't destroy valuable objects, he most probably destroyed a lot of valuable information!

sandworm101 8y ago
But this guy was a hunter. There is a legal tension whenever a hunter finds the tip of what looks to be a big find. Should they hand it to experts, and let the experts make the further discoveries, or thouroughly document the site so they can claim the credit for each object found? There are normally negotiations, and silly theatrics whereby the original detectorist stands amongst the scientists, so they are seen to be "discovering" each piece as it is unearthed. I dont fault them. Millions might be at stake.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  I can't fault the detectorists for wanting to be involved, it would be a real shame to discover something like this and then just hand it straight off to someone else the second things started to get interesting. A lot of these people are very passionate about history, any potential financial incentive might just be a secondary consideration.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    In places like britain, or egypt, artifacts are literally everywhere. You cannot put a shovel in without hitting something. So, like it or not, history and science are not always the primary concern. Farmers want thier fields back asap. Teams need to move fast, often with only a single season of actual digging.
isostatic 8y ago
Sure But when faced with "But he had to convince the experts. One of the first he spoke to told him: "No, you're wrong. One's never been found in this part of the country."" what can you do?
- zhte415 8y ago
  He certainly didn't give up. He seems tenacious. And that seems the right thing to have been done. > "I knew the importance of them straight away," said Mr Smith who has been prospecting for around 30 years. > "It was just instinct. I'd read all about chariot burials and just wished it could have been me, so finding this has been a privilege." The area has a long Celtic history. For readers unfamiliar perhaps with the UK or this part of the UK, some context: the stones in Stonehenge [0] were sourced from the Preseli Hills [1] several hundred kilometers away (in the part of Wales this site is). Pembrokeshire is beautiful, and somewhat rugged. Rolling hills meet sandy beaches, equally meeting treacherous cliffs. As a child, I remember frequently climbing to the peak of an iron age settlement in the morning, sort-of mixing-in with the sheep left to roam there, then after lunch, a quite long walk down to the sandy beaches it overlooked. Trying to catch shrimp in the sandy pools the escaping tide left. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preseli_Hills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preseli_Hills
  - celticninja 8y ago
    I have similar memories. I remember as kids we used to play in an old castle by the beach, its just open and anyone can go and wander around it. I travel around the UK with my kids and these days everything wants to charge an entry fee, even other castles in similar states of decay/disrepair. Easily my favourite castle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llansteffan_Castle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llansteffan_Castle
    - SamColes 8y ago
      There are free to access castle ruins and buildings of a similar age and much older all over the UK, they're hardly in short supply. Maybe you didn't intend it but this comes across as overly pessimistic. It's hardly as if every bit of history in the country has had a fence put round it to charge an entry fee. Not trying to say what you're describing doesn't exist, but the only place I can think of that I've been to that charges to see some 3ft high bits of wall would be Old Sarum, but that also has great views.
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
The article says he's been finding these items for 30+ years. He may not be a "professional" archaeologist but I'm sure he's more than familiar with the process and the protocol around these things as well as the importance of not destroying valuable evidence. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, at least.
codeulike 8y ago
He didn't dig very far - only as far as he needed to show what it was - and left most of it for the archaeologists to dig, if you read the article

vectorEQ 8y ago

very cool find. archeologists also destroy a lot of evidence, and if they find anything that doesn't fit rpevious findings often either ignore it or are highly skeptical, which is why i assume he hd some trouble to convince this was an actual find, and had to ... dig a little deeper :D

pulisse 8y ago
> if they find anything that doesn't fit rpevious findings often either ignore it or are highly skeptical\ If they find something that doesn't fit previous findings, they publish on it and get tenure.
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  That may happen sometimes, but there's also examples of findings that contradict popular hypotheses and the person who found it gets their career destroyed and labelled as a "crank" and a "fraud" rather than getting tenure.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Tenure is not a thing in the UK.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    It might not be called tenure, but "professor for life" absolutely is a thing at British universities.
    - arethuza 8y ago
      "Despite this recent erosion of tenure in the UK, it is still practiced in most universities. Permanent contracts use the word "tenure" for lecturers who are "reappointed to the retiring age". This is equivalent to a US tenure decision" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecturer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecturer Certainly the impression I got when I worked as a contract researcher for 6 years - if you weren't on an explicitly temporary contract (which I was) then you were probably there for life if you wanted.

doitLP 8y ago

It seems like the UK government’s Treasure Act really incentivizes the right kind behavior in these situations. He found it, contacted the right people and once it gets evaluated he and the landowner are going to get a big payday. Better than making off with valuable artifacts and destroying the site. > The Treasure Act allows for a reward up to the market value of the treasure to be shared among the finder and the tenants and/or owner of the land on which the treasure was found. The amount of the reward and how it is divided among the claimants is determined by the Treasure Valuation Committee. Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996

yitchelle 8y ago
How is the market value determined, especially for items that have never been sold on the market before?
- hycaria 8y ago
  Rarity, significance, state of conservation... I'm not surprised a market value can be assessed by people working in the field.
  - blbviviv 8y ago
    There is a market for these things. Perhaps the treasury acts as escrow service, with an ever so slight bias!?
- fredley 8y ago
  Typically at some kind of auction.
gsnedders 8y ago
The Treasure Act 1996 only has territorial extent over E+W+NI, notably excluding Scotland, where treasure is still dealt with under (Scots) Common Law. Notably, any reward is granted purely to the finder, though there is no default right to search land one does not own (and if discovered without permission of the landowner, there have been cases where the entire reward has been awarded to the landowner); de-facto, following the English and Northern Irish law, landowners normally grant access such that any reward is split equally.

apo 8y ago

For a comedic peek into the culture around Britain's detectorists (ties in nicely with this story), check out the series Detecorists, available on Netflix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detectorists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detectorists

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]