10 ms·

>I ask this because I'm 4-years-experienced as a front-end UI/interaction dev, nothing but glowing references, looking for another, similar, position (regular,

>I ask this because I'm 4-years-experienced as a front-end UI/interaction dev, nothing but glowing references, looking for another, similar, position (regular, not senior or lead) and have had...way too many interviews and rejections, and can't understand why companies are such sticklers for interested devs to have Every Single Box in their list of requirements checked when it would take days or a couple weeks to learn XYZ framework/library/whatever to the level of competence that is required for the position. I've found myself in the exact same situation lately. It seems companies are not actually hiring for people to do a job, but simply trolling the market for who they can find. The result is wasting weeks of your life being strung along through their "process", only to be given a form letter rejection. I quit my job at the time after months of these nonstop recruiter emails enticing me, and wasted 2 months going through this ruse with a couple companies, only to be left with a feeling of total defeat and a Bay Area rent payment eating me alive. To anyone considering doing the same, think twice. It's pretty maddening not even being able to land an in-person interview with 4 years experience.

dharmab 8y ago
Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured.
- aphextron 8y ago
  >Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured. I guess this is the takeaway from a self preservation standpoint, but the alternative is worse. Spending months of your employer's time completely mentally checked out, taking sick time and vacation for interviews, pretending like you care in meetings, it's all too much. I watched that happen multiple times before I left, and it's really discourteous to the people you work with. It just seems unethical to me to remain somewhere once you've decided to leave.
  - tcbawo 8y ago
    When you quit, you lose leverage. It's not unethical to use personal and vacation days as you see fit.
    - thrower123 8y ago
      They are your days to use, however you feel like. Hell, you really should be entitled to use your lunch hour if you want, but that might be my blue-collar roots in jobs where I actually clocked out for lunch and had mandated 9am and 3pm breaks showing through...
    - imhoguy 8y ago
      > When you quit, you lose leverage. Not if you have any other kind of safety net, e.g. savings or frugal low cost lifestyle.
  - gcmac 8y ago
    Having been through this recently I certainly empathize with feeling like you're doing something wrong when looking for a new job. What got me through it was realizing that if the company was looking to replace me they would do the exact same thing - it's just how business works. That being said, as difficult as it is to continue to give 100% leaving well is very important for building references that could help you in the future.
  - realbarack 8y ago
    It is absolutely not unethical to remain somewhere once you've decided to leave. The agreement between you and your employer is that you provide your work in exchange for their money. If you're employed at-will then the company is free to fire you any time they think they're not getting their end of the deal. Of course, it is more fun to work at a job you care about. But you are under no obligation to "care," and there's nothing wrong with keeping a job while you don't care until you find another one.
  - murukesh_s 8y ago
    It is not, absolutely not. Just think from the company side, they protect their financial interest first and in time of difficulties they lay you off with no mercy. There is nothing unethical in that as well. You just do your job in a professional manner even on your last day..
  - freewilly1040 8y ago
    You do not owe your employer your true heart and soul. You exchange your services for money. If you are holding to that agreement you should not feel guilty about doing what is best for yourself.
- lathiat 8y ago
  This is good advice
- jrs95 8y ago
  I've had 5 jobs now, each lasting about a year and a half at most, and I only quit 1 of them because everyone on the team was being replaced to avoid having to grant any options prior to an acquisition. Twice my employer went out of business entirely, another time they laid off 20% of their workforce to secure more funding, and most recently a company let go all of it's remote developers after a change in leadership. While I agree you shouldn't quit your job without having the next thing already in place, at least in my experience this is a very volatile industry and you can't really expect to keep a job for a long time anyways. The odds may be better at a bigger company, but it still happens. One of the largest employers in my city just laid off about 1100 people. I've been lucky in that I've been able to quickly find work after these things happened before, but I look at it like I need to be prepared to potentially have to go without work for months at any time. Hopefully my next job will be one I can keep for several years, as the constant job hopping really isn't for me.
  - collyw 8y ago
    I have switched a few times in the last few years, one time was because a start-up wasn't paying us (two devs quit on the same day,I was officially fired for making enough of a fuss). Not having a job when you are applying for new ones puts you on a back foot with salary negotiations, as you don't have anything to compare it to. However you do have a lot more time and energy to put into the interview process. Especially when people are looking for technical tests and you have limited spare time and energy after work.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  On the contrary, I quit my job without having a job to move into, only $1000 savings and a credit card, and then moved to Australia. Everything worked out well and it was the best decision I ever made. Upon saying that, I knew that there were a lot of jobs available, and I was also willing to do any kind of job, not just software engineering. If push came to shove, I was willing to go back to working in construction or hospitality. I also had a backup plan if all else failed, which was to fly back home and stay with my parents while I sorted my life out. My advice would be to not quit your job without a plan and a plan B.
  - TripleCrown 8y ago
    In Australia, you'd probably make more money in construction vs software engineering.
    - enraged_camel 8y ago
      That doesn't necessarily mean you'll be happier, however. Most construction jobs are very hard on the body.
      - odonnellryan 8y ago
        Maybe, maybe not. I was pretty happy when I was doing construction.
      - gambiting 8y ago
        I very frequently consider getting any job that involves being outside and doing physical work over sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day. I like programming, but I hate not being outside for vast majority of the day and what this lifestyle is doing to my body.
        speedplane 8y ago
        Do you really believe that? Being outside and getting exercise is really nice, but using your brain is so much nicer. Would you really give up a job that is intellectually stimulating for one that uses you mostly for your mechanical abilities?
- mooreds 8y ago
  By the way, the next source doesn't have to be a full time job. Explore contracting as well. I have found that to be a great alternative to an FTE position, and have bounced back and forth between FTE and contractor. (Preferably on your own but through a body shop works too.) It's not exactly the same skillset, but you'll understand and appreciate sales and accounts receivable much more after a stint of doing that yourself.
- shagie 8y ago
  There's also an element of desirability in having a job. If you have a job, it means someone has selected you and is paying you to do certain roles. In and of itself this makes the candidate more desirable than one who has either quit or been fired.
perryh2 8y ago
To OP and aphextron: Keep your head up and treat unemployment like a full-time job. How many is "way too many" interviews? If you haven't been able to pass phone screens, you must identify the reason why. Interviewers and recruiters are looking for engaged candidates, so make sure you do research about the company and come up with some good questions to demonstrate interest. This is the main problem that I've seen with my friends that have "failed" phone interviews. If you need any help with soft skills, ping me on Twitter (info in profile).
Double_a_92 8y ago
Why would you leave your job before having another one lined up?
BuckRogers 8y ago
Count me in the exact same situation. I left my last job because my mother in law's house was destroyed by Hurricane Harvey. I wanted to help fix her home, then move back to Chicago, and realign my career where I wanted it to go. It has been a total disaster, exact same thing you quoted and your statement as well. Will I ever dare try to help someone else to that extent again? Or make an effort to better my career? No. Lesson learned, we're lucky to have jobs at all. I've done what both of you guys did, but for 6 months now. I feel at the limit of my sanity from all the interviews. I have so much to offer, a very solid background, solid references, I'm very well spoken and convincing- but I'm just not good enough or they're trolling the market as you so very well said. I have 10 years of experience, 8 in devops and 2 in webdev. I've started telling employers- tell me your stack and I'll be up to speed before my first day. I'm willing to work for peanuts. At this point, I realize that I've picked my passion, but chose my career very poorly. My last company told me that the rule that HR had set for hiring was senior devs from the US, entry to mid level exclusively from from India. Going back in time, I'd have nothing to do with software. I would've picked a licensed profession, bonus points for one that offers a union. I'd probably become an electrician or do HVAC and start my own company. I guess that's what opioids are for, to end ourselves. We are apparently not wanted nor needed in this industry, possibly the economy as a whole. I'm going to keep applying and interviewing, but I've now accepted that I'm going to slip out of the middle class. No way around it. Without my wife's public teacher's health insurance, I'd be in big trouble. This economy and job market that everyone is talking about is a lie. If you're investment class, sure, things are great. There's an abundance of guys like us walking around. All the news articles saying how great it is had me completely fooled, I thought it was time to make my move. I'm not complaining about any of this, I'm tough as nails and forge on in every situation I've been in life. I can handle it, but I do think there's a good chance nothing comes up here I'm going to be delivering pizzas pretty soon. I do feel sorry for all the other folks who aren't as polished, have my resume, no criminal record, good credit, and without knowing someone at a company, outside of some very good luck, I don't think most of them have a chance in hell.

dharmab 8y ago

Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured.

aphextron 8y ago
>Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured. I guess this is the takeaway from a self preservation standpoint, but the alternative is worse. Spending months of your employer's time completely mentally checked out, taking sick time and vacation for interviews, pretending like you care in meetings, it's all too much. I watched that happen multiple times before I left, and it's really discourteous to the people you work with. It just seems unethical to me to remain somewhere once you've decided to leave.
- tcbawo 8y ago
  When you quit, you lose leverage. It's not unethical to use personal and vacation days as you see fit.
  - thrower123 8y ago
    They are your days to use, however you feel like. Hell, you really should be entitled to use your lunch hour if you want, but that might be my blue-collar roots in jobs where I actually clocked out for lunch and had mandated 9am and 3pm breaks showing through...
  - imhoguy 8y ago
    > When you quit, you lose leverage. Not if you have any other kind of safety net, e.g. savings or frugal low cost lifestyle.
- gcmac 8y ago
  Having been through this recently I certainly empathize with feeling like you're doing something wrong when looking for a new job. What got me through it was realizing that if the company was looking to replace me they would do the exact same thing - it's just how business works. That being said, as difficult as it is to continue to give 100% leaving well is very important for building references that could help you in the future.
- realbarack 8y ago
  It is absolutely not unethical to remain somewhere once you've decided to leave. The agreement between you and your employer is that you provide your work in exchange for their money. If you're employed at-will then the company is free to fire you any time they think they're not getting their end of the deal. Of course, it is more fun to work at a job you care about. But you are under no obligation to "care," and there's nothing wrong with keeping a job while you don't care until you find another one.
- murukesh_s 8y ago
  It is not, absolutely not. Just think from the company side, they protect their financial interest first and in time of difficulties they lay you off with no mercy. There is nothing unethical in that as well. You just do your job in a professional manner even on your last day..
- freewilly1040 8y ago
  You do not owe your employer your true heart and soul. You exchange your services for money. If you are holding to that agreement you should not feel guilty about doing what is best for yourself.
lathiat 8y ago
This is good advice
jrs95 8y ago
I've had 5 jobs now, each lasting about a year and a half at most, and I only quit 1 of them because everyone on the team was being replaced to avoid having to grant any options prior to an acquisition. Twice my employer went out of business entirely, another time they laid off 20% of their workforce to secure more funding, and most recently a company let go all of it's remote developers after a change in leadership. While I agree you shouldn't quit your job without having the next thing already in place, at least in my experience this is a very volatile industry and you can't really expect to keep a job for a long time anyways. The odds may be better at a bigger company, but it still happens. One of the largest employers in my city just laid off about 1100 people. I've been lucky in that I've been able to quickly find work after these things happened before, but I look at it like I need to be prepared to potentially have to go without work for months at any time. Hopefully my next job will be one I can keep for several years, as the constant job hopping really isn't for me.
- collyw 8y ago
  I have switched a few times in the last few years, one time was because a start-up wasn't paying us (two devs quit on the same day,I was officially fired for making enough of a fuss). Not having a job when you are applying for new ones puts you on a back foot with salary negotiations, as you don't have anything to compare it to. However you do have a lot more time and energy to put into the interview process. Especially when people are looking for technical tests and you have limited spare time and energy after work.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
On the contrary, I quit my job without having a job to move into, only $1000 savings and a credit card, and then moved to Australia. Everything worked out well and it was the best decision I ever made. Upon saying that, I knew that there were a lot of jobs available, and I was also willing to do any kind of job, not just software engineering. If push came to shove, I was willing to go back to working in construction or hospitality. I also had a backup plan if all else failed, which was to fly back home and stay with my parents while I sorted my life out. My advice would be to not quit your job without a plan and a plan B.
- TripleCrown 8y ago
  In Australia, you'd probably make more money in construction vs software engineering.
  - enraged_camel 8y ago
    That doesn't necessarily mean you'll be happier, however. Most construction jobs are very hard on the body.
    - odonnellryan 8y ago
      Maybe, maybe not. I was pretty happy when I was doing construction.
    - gambiting 8y ago
      I very frequently consider getting any job that involves being outside and doing physical work over sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day. I like programming, but I hate not being outside for vast majority of the day and what this lifestyle is doing to my body.
      - speedplane 8y ago
        Do you really believe that? Being outside and getting exercise is really nice, but using your brain is so much nicer. Would you really give up a job that is intellectually stimulating for one that uses you mostly for your mechanical abilities?
mooreds 8y ago
By the way, the next source doesn't have to be a full time job. Explore contracting as well. I have found that to be a great alternative to an FTE position, and have bounced back and forth between FTE and contractor. (Preferably on your own but through a body shop works too.) It's not exactly the same skillset, but you'll understand and appreciate sales and accounts receivable much more after a stint of doing that yourself.
shagie 8y ago
There's also an element of desirability in having a job. If you have a job, it means someone has selected you and is paying you to do certain roles. In and of itself this makes the candidate more desirable than one who has either quit or been fired.

perryh2 8y ago

To OP and aphextron: Keep your head up and treat unemployment like a full-time job. How many is "way too many" interviews? If you haven't been able to pass phone screens, you must identify the reason why. Interviewers and recruiters are looking for engaged candidates, so make sure you do research about the company and come up with some good questions to demonstrate interest. This is the main problem that I've seen with my friends that have "failed" phone interviews. If you need any help with soft skills, ping me on Twitter (info in profile).

Double_a_92 8y ago

Why would you leave your job before having another one lined up?

BuckRogers 8y ago

Count me in the exact same situation. I left my last job because my mother in law's house was destroyed by Hurricane Harvey. I wanted to help fix her home, then move back to Chicago, and realign my career where I wanted it to go. It has been a total disaster, exact same thing you quoted and your statement as well. Will I ever dare try to help someone else to that extent again? Or make an effort to better my career? No. Lesson learned, we're lucky to have jobs at all. I've done what both of you guys did, but for 6 months now. I feel at the limit of my sanity from all the interviews. I have so much to offer, a very solid background, solid references, I'm very well spoken and convincing- but I'm just not good enough or they're trolling the market as you so very well said. I have 10 years of experience, 8 in devops and 2 in webdev. I've started telling employers- tell me your stack and I'll be up to speed before my first day. I'm willing to work for peanuts. At this point, I realize that I've picked my passion, but chose my career very poorly. My last company told me that the rule that HR had set for hiring was senior devs from the US, entry to mid level exclusively from from India. Going back in time, I'd have nothing to do with software. I would've picked a licensed profession, bonus points for one that offers a union. I'd probably become an electrician or do HVAC and start my own company. I guess that's what opioids are for, to end ourselves. We are apparently not wanted nor needed in this industry, possibly the economy as a whole. I'm going to keep applying and interviewing, but I've now accepted that I'm going to slip out of the middle class. No way around it. Without my wife's public teacher's health insurance, I'd be in big trouble. This economy and job market that everyone is talking about is a lie. If you're investment class, sure, things are great. There's an abundance of guys like us walking around. All the news articles saying how great it is had me completely fooled, I thought it was time to make my move. I'm not complaining about any of this, I'm tough as nails and forge on in every situation I've been in life. I can handle it, but I do think there's a good chance nothing comes up here I'm going to be delivering pizzas pretty soon. I do feel sorry for all the other folks who aren't as polished, have my resume, no criminal record, good credit, and without knowing someone at a company, outside of some very good luck, I don't think most of them have a chance in hell.