4 ms·

If this was in the US then almost certainly yes, if they had 130k cash or someone willing to lend it to them despite their recent default. You can generally "ma

If this was in the US then almost certainly yes, if they had 130k cash or someone willing to lend it to them despite their recent default. You can generally "mail the keys to the bank" and have no further liability. In other jurisdictions, you might have to declare bankruptcy if you default on your mortgage.

rhizome 8y ago
Is jinglemail uncontestable if the bank finds out the borrower has money to pay?
- Something1234 8y ago
  jinglemail is a very interesting term. Where did you come across that?
  - techsupporter 8y ago
    I've heard it for a long time. It refers to the sound that keys make and that you're "mailing the keys" (sometimes literally) to the bank.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - rhizome 8y ago
    I forget, some blog during the 2008 US real estate shitshow.
will_brown 8y ago
>You can generally "mail the keys to the bank" and have no further liability. No. There is Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure, which sounds like what you are talking about, but that is not a unilateral option you exercise by mailing keys...you need the banks permission, which they usually don’t give, especially when the property is underwater. If people could unilaterally turn in keys and escape the debt you can be sure the banks would have gone under during the Great Recession. As it was the Federal Bailout essentially covered the legal fees for banks to foreclose on these toxic assets and recover what they could. Still even then (like parents hypothetical) if a bank foreclosed and $300k was owed and they sold the property for $130k the next step was a separate filing for deficiency judgement (the difference or $170k in this case).
- dmurray 8y ago
  I am not a lawyer. I was going to reply to rhizome (sibling post of yours) saying this really differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in my understanding, in most US jurisdictions the lender has no recourse (either none at all, legally speaking, or tends to get nowhere in practice). Is my understanding really untrue and the banks can go after your other assets in all US states? Edit: A quick google told me that there are 12 "non-recourse states" for "most residential mortgages": Alaska, Arizona, California, Iowa, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, Washington and Wisconsin. https://www.arklawgroup.com/blog/how-do-i-know-whether-my-mortgage-loan-is-a-recourse-or-non-recourse-loan https://www.arklawgroup.com/blog/how-do-i-know-whether-my-mo...
  - will_brown 8y ago
    Foreclosure procedures do depend a little on jurisdiction (ie judicial vs nonjudicial foreclosure states or both), but even within those non-recourse states you link to, lenders can in fact come for deficiency judgements between the balance of the loan and the fair market value of the property. You can find many articles about California, for example, where they will say someththing like “in California, in most foreclosures banks can’t go after borrowers for deficiency judgement”, but it’s misleading. California has both judicial and nonjudicial foreclosure, and judicial foreclosures allow deficiency judgments and nonjudicial foreclosure generally don’t. So why don’t all lenders go for the judicial foreclosure and for the deficiency judgement? Time and Money! It simply takes longer and costs more to go the judicial route and why do that if you ultimately can’t collect from the borrower? The thing is the banks/borrowers have so much data, their automated systems are pretty good at knowing if they will likely be able to collect enough to cover the extra cost of the judicial foreclosure in which case they go that route and then for the deficiency judgement. Once they have that they can garnish wages, attach accounts, etc...
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > You can find many articles about California, for example, where they will say someththing like “in California, in most foreclosures banks can’t go after borrowers for deficiency judgement”, but it’s misleading. California has both judicial and nonjudicial foreclosure, and judicial foreclosures allow deficiency judgments and nonjudicial foreclosure generally don’t. This is more misleading than what it “corrects”, which is actually entirely correct for the case usually of interest (and which the articles are almost always specifically addressing), owner-occupied residential properties. Its true that California allows deficiency judgements for judicial foreclosures except as barred by the State anti-deficiency statute. But that statute prohibits all deficiency judgements for purchase-money or refinance loans for residential property with up to four units when the owner/borrower resides on the property (and, unlike most anti-deficiency statutes, covers second and subsequent mortgages for that purpose, not just first mortgages.) https://www.weltman.com/?t=40&an=40108&format=xml&p=7735 https://www.weltman.com/?t=40&an=40108&format=xml&p=7735
dragonwriter 8y ago
> If this was in the US then almost certainly yes, if they had 130k cash or someone willing to lend it to them despite their recent default. You can generally "mail the keys to the bank" and have no further liability. No, only 15 states generally prohibit mortgage deficiency judgements (and those prohibitions mostly apply only to first mortgages, and some are limited even there), in the rest the creditor can come after you for the unrecovered balance after a foreclosure sale. https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/anti-deficiency-laws.html https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/anti-deficien...

rhizome 8y ago

Is jinglemail uncontestable if the bank finds out the borrower has money to pay?

Something1234 8y ago
jinglemail is a very interesting term. Where did you come across that?
- techsupporter 8y ago
  I've heard it for a long time. It refers to the sound that keys make and that you're "mailing the keys" (sometimes literally) to the bank.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- rhizome 8y ago
  I forget, some blog during the 2008 US real estate shitshow.

will_brown 8y ago

>You can generally "mail the keys to the bank" and have no further liability. No. There is Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure, which sounds like what you are talking about, but that is not a unilateral option you exercise by mailing keys...you need the banks permission, which they usually don’t give, especially when the property is underwater. If people could unilaterally turn in keys and escape the debt you can be sure the banks would have gone under during the Great Recession. As it was the Federal Bailout essentially covered the legal fees for banks to foreclose on these toxic assets and recover what they could. Still even then (like parents hypothetical) if a bank foreclosed and $300k was owed and they sold the property for $130k the next step was a separate filing for deficiency judgement (the difference or $170k in this case).

dmurray 8y ago
I am not a lawyer. I was going to reply to rhizome (sibling post of yours) saying this really differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in my understanding, in most US jurisdictions the lender has no recourse (either none at all, legally speaking, or tends to get nowhere in practice). Is my understanding really untrue and the banks can go after your other assets in all US states? Edit: A quick google told me that there are 12 "non-recourse states" for "most residential mortgages": Alaska, Arizona, California, Iowa, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, Washington and Wisconsin. https://www.arklawgroup.com/blog/how-do-i-know-whether-my-mortgage-loan-is-a-recourse-or-non-recourse-loan https://www.arklawgroup.com/blog/how-do-i-know-whether-my-mo...
- will_brown 8y ago
  Foreclosure procedures do depend a little on jurisdiction (ie judicial vs nonjudicial foreclosure states or both), but even within those non-recourse states you link to, lenders can in fact come for deficiency judgements between the balance of the loan and the fair market value of the property. You can find many articles about California, for example, where they will say someththing like “in California, in most foreclosures banks can’t go after borrowers for deficiency judgement”, but it’s misleading. California has both judicial and nonjudicial foreclosure, and judicial foreclosures allow deficiency judgments and nonjudicial foreclosure generally don’t. So why don’t all lenders go for the judicial foreclosure and for the deficiency judgement? Time and Money! It simply takes longer and costs more to go the judicial route and why do that if you ultimately can’t collect from the borrower? The thing is the banks/borrowers have so much data, their automated systems are pretty good at knowing if they will likely be able to collect enough to cover the extra cost of the judicial foreclosure in which case they go that route and then for the deficiency judgement. Once they have that they can garnish wages, attach accounts, etc...
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > You can find many articles about California, for example, where they will say someththing like “in California, in most foreclosures banks can’t go after borrowers for deficiency judgement”, but it’s misleading. California has both judicial and nonjudicial foreclosure, and judicial foreclosures allow deficiency judgments and nonjudicial foreclosure generally don’t. This is more misleading than what it “corrects”, which is actually entirely correct for the case usually of interest (and which the articles are almost always specifically addressing), owner-occupied residential properties. Its true that California allows deficiency judgements for judicial foreclosures except as barred by the State anti-deficiency statute. But that statute prohibits all deficiency judgements for purchase-money or refinance loans for residential property with up to four units when the owner/borrower resides on the property (and, unlike most anti-deficiency statutes, covers second and subsequent mortgages for that purpose, not just first mortgages.) https://www.weltman.com/?t=40&an=40108&format=xml&p=7735 https://www.weltman.com/?t=40&an=40108&format=xml&p=7735

dragonwriter 8y ago

> If this was in the US then almost certainly yes, if they had 130k cash or someone willing to lend it to them despite their recent default. You can generally "mail the keys to the bank" and have no further liability. No, only 15 states generally prohibit mortgage deficiency judgements (and those prohibitions mostly apply only to first mortgages, and some are limited even there), in the rest the creditor can come after you for the unrecovered balance after a foreclosure sale. https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/anti-deficiency-laws.html https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/anti-deficien...