12 ms·

All programming conferences are C conferences, if you think about it.

by beat 8y ago

lostgame 8y ago
What on earth are you talking about? Assembly. Java. Ruby. Python. The list goes on. Could you explain your rationale behind this statement?
- kardos 8y ago
  I guess the point is that the other languages are based on C. From your list CPython, CRuby and the GNU assembler are written in C. Not sure about Java. Edit: not necessarily agreeing, there must be some languages that do not rely on C.
  - beat 8y ago
    Java runs on the JVM, which is probably written in C++ (which is C, when you start digging). The widely-used Eclipse J9 JVM is written in C++.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > C++ (which is C, when you start digging). C++ is not C (it was once implemented as a preprocessor in front of a C compiler, but that's not th same as being C, and it's now more likely to implemented as a self-hosting compiler.)
      - nineteen999 8y ago
        Ironically enough, the gcc suite itself is partially implemented in C++ these days.
- beat 8y ago
  Point me to a compiler or interpreter, any of them, that isn't either written in C or written in something that was written in C. And of course, whatever you play with, it's running on an operating system written in C. If programming is turtles all the way down, C is the bottom turtle, standing on the solid ground of Von Neumann architecture. The point is, C is utterly pervasive. Everything that we think is different from C is made from C.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Point me to a compiler or interpreter, any of them, that isn't either written in C or written in something that was written in C. Plenty of languages have self-hosting compilers or interpreters available, which are neither written in C nor written in something written in C. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(compilers)#List_of_languages_having_self-hosting_compilers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(compilers)#Li... I'm also pretty sure that some are written in C++, whose implementations are usually also written in C++, and which (while closely related to C) is not C. > And of course, whatever you play with, it's running on an operating system written in C. That's obviously not the case if what you are playing with is an OS written in not-C. It's actually not entirely true in plenty of cases, because operating systems that use C range from almost-entirely C (with some assembly) to C-among-other-things (e.g., z/OS and it's mix of PL/X, HLASM, and C/C++.) > If programming is turtles all the way down, C is the bottom turtle I’m pretty sure the bottom turtle is native machine code and/or processor microcode.
  - skykooler 8y ago
    Go is written in Go, which is why you need it installed in the first place before you can run the go compiler.
    - icedchai 8y ago
      Except for versions before 1.5, which were written in C.
      - lloeki 8y ago
        Spoiler: I hear the first C compilers were probably not written in C, until they were.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - voltagex_ 8y ago
      Bootstrapping problems are interesting/frustrating, especially if you're trying to get a new package into Debian. If you wanted to build Go from source, what would you build first? What version(s)? Edit: the documentation is outstanding - https://golang.org/doc/install/source#go14 https://golang.org/doc/install/source#go14
- nineteen999 8y ago
  I think the point that he is making is that most popular modern implementations of assemblers, Java compilers/JVM's, Ruby and Python interpreters are written in C, or in a language which itself was bootstrapped from C, eg. C++.
TheDong 8y ago
I don't see how that follows at all. If you're implying all program languages are derived from C, that's simply false. Lisp is based on the lambda calculus and predates C, as one easy counter-example. If you're implying that all languages run on top of C, that's also false. Theoretical Lisp Machines [0] have been envisioned which do not run C anywhere, and many languages (rust, go, etc) can be built into unikernals that run on real hardware with no C anywhere in the mix. As far as I can tell, your statement is both pointless and wrong in even a generous interpretation of it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  Show me a lisp which is used by enough people to fill a conference in 2018 that isn't implemented in C. Show me a lisp machine which was manufactured any time in the past 10 years.
  - phoe-krk 8y ago
    Steel Bank Common Lisp and Clozure Common Lisp are both implemented mostly in Lisp with some C code thrown in. And the European Lisp Symposium always has a large share of Common Lisp programmers.
  - giancarlostoro 8y ago
    Well there's Amber I suppose? Not popular, but not in C at least. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699065 Uses m-expressions instead of s-expressions though.
  - aidenn0 8y ago
    SBCL (a fork of cmucl) is implemented in common lisp and is the most popular common lisp implementation.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
      https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/tree/master/src/runtime https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/tree/master/src/runtime
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
detaro 8y ago
In the same sense that all book fairs are forestry expos.
- beat 8y ago
  And you know someone is gonna come along and explain that LISP books are written only on tinfoil, so you're completely wrong.
  - eddieh 8y ago
    He is completely wrong because paper is sourced from tree farms, not actual forests. Also I love LISP, Scheme, and Emacs.
    - BeeOnRope 8y ago
      A tree farm (at least the type that provide pulp for paper) is just a type of forest. Anyway, where I'm from, paper most definitely comes from forests (mostly second-growth) not anything you would call a "tree farm".

All programming conferences are C conferences, if you think about it.

by beat 8y ago

All programming conferences are C conferences, if you think about it.

What on earth are you talking about? Assembly. Java. Ruby. Python. The list goes on. Could you explain your rationale behind this statement?

kardos 8y ago
I guess the point is that the other languages are based on C. From your list CPython, CRuby and the GNU assembler are written in C. Not sure about Java. Edit: not necessarily agreeing, there must be some languages that do not rely on C.
- beat 8y ago
  Java runs on the JVM, which is probably written in C++ (which is C, when you start digging). The widely-used Eclipse J9 JVM is written in C++.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > C++ (which is C, when you start digging). C++ is not C (it was once implemented as a preprocessor in front of a C compiler, but that's not th same as being C, and it's now more likely to implemented as a self-hosting compiler.)
    - nineteen999 8y ago
      Ironically enough, the gcc suite itself is partially implemented in C++ these days.
beat 8y ago
Point me to a compiler or interpreter, any of them, that isn't either written in C or written in something that was written in C. And of course, whatever you play with, it's running on an operating system written in C. If programming is turtles all the way down, C is the bottom turtle, standing on the solid ground of Von Neumann architecture. The point is, C is utterly pervasive. Everything that we think is different from C is made from C.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Point me to a compiler or interpreter, any of them, that isn't either written in C or written in something that was written in C. Plenty of languages have self-hosting compilers or interpreters available, which are neither written in C nor written in something written in C. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(compilers)#List_of_languages_having_self-hosting_compilers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(compilers)#Li... I'm also pretty sure that some are written in C++, whose implementations are usually also written in C++, and which (while closely related to C) is not C. > And of course, whatever you play with, it's running on an operating system written in C. That's obviously not the case if what you are playing with is an OS written in not-C. It's actually not entirely true in plenty of cases, because operating systems that use C range from almost-entirely C (with some assembly) to C-among-other-things (e.g., z/OS and it's mix of PL/X, HLASM, and C/C++.) > If programming is turtles all the way down, C is the bottom turtle I’m pretty sure the bottom turtle is native machine code and/or processor microcode.
- skykooler 8y ago
  Go is written in Go, which is why you need it installed in the first place before you can run the go compiler.
  - icedchai 8y ago
    Except for versions before 1.5, which were written in C.
    - lloeki 8y ago
      Spoiler: I hear the first C compilers were probably not written in C, until they were.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - voltagex_ 8y ago
    Bootstrapping problems are interesting/frustrating, especially if you're trying to get a new package into Debian. If you wanted to build Go from source, what would you build first? What version(s)? Edit: the documentation is outstanding - https://golang.org/doc/install/source#go14 https://golang.org/doc/install/source#go14
nineteen999 8y ago
I think the point that he is making is that most popular modern implementations of assemblers, Java compilers/JVM's, Ruby and Python interpreters are written in C, or in a language which itself was bootstrapped from C, eg. C++.

TheDong 8y ago

I don't see how that follows at all. If you're implying all program languages are derived from C, that's simply false. Lisp is based on the lambda calculus and predates C, as one easy counter-example. If you're implying that all languages run on top of C, that's also false. Theoretical Lisp Machines [0] have been envisioned which do not run C anywhere, and many languages (rust, go, etc) can be built into unikernals that run on real hardware with no C anywhere in the mix. As far as I can tell, your statement is both pointless and wrong in even a generous interpretation of it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
Show me a lisp which is used by enough people to fill a conference in 2018 that isn't implemented in C. Show me a lisp machine which was manufactured any time in the past 10 years.
- phoe-krk 8y ago
  Steel Bank Common Lisp and Clozure Common Lisp are both implemented mostly in Lisp with some C code thrown in. And the European Lisp Symposium always has a large share of Common Lisp programmers.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  Well there's Amber I suppose? Not popular, but not in C at least. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699065 Uses m-expressions instead of s-expressions though.
- aidenn0 8y ago
  SBCL (a fork of cmucl) is implemented in common lisp and is the most popular common lisp implementation.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/tree/master/src/runtime https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/tree/master/src/runtime

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

detaro 8y ago

In the same sense that all book fairs are forestry expos.

beat 8y ago
And you know someone is gonna come along and explain that LISP books are written only on tinfoil, so you're completely wrong.
- eddieh 8y ago
  He is completely wrong because paper is sourced from tree farms, not actual forests. Also I love LISP, Scheme, and Emacs.
  - BeeOnRope 8y ago
    A tree farm (at least the type that provide pulp for paper) is just a type of forest. Anyway, where I'm from, paper most definitely comes from forests (mostly second-growth) not anything you would call a "tree farm".