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Without violence, it's significantly harder to defeat griefing, nonviolent but antisocial behavior. The work required to overcome griefing significantly outwei

Without violence, it's significantly harder to defeat griefing, nonviolent but antisocial behavior. The work required to overcome griefing significantly outweighs the work the griefer puts in. An example would be obstructing someone's path so they don't have freedom of movement or "theft" of assets in the commons that the victim was trying to earn, such as dealing the killing blow for XP after another player did most of the work. I'm using "state sponsoroed violence" in broad strokes. Without PvP in player-governed game worlds, you can't even really enforce simple jail time.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
There are many ways. I've been planning a MMORPG for some time with rules to ensure player cooperation over griefing, without PVP violence. Using self-control and social pressures.
stcredzero 8y ago
"theft" of assets in the commons that the victim was trying to earn, such as dealing the killing blow for XP after another player did most of the work. Just give everyone the XP. (This is an example of why XP is silly.) There are already MMOs that have done this. Without PvP in player-governed game worlds, you can't even really enforce simple jail time. What if you teleported those player's characters into room with no doors? (Or a swimming pool with no ladder.)
- Steltek 8y ago
  The XP example is just one of many creative ways of causing trouble within a games rules. You'll forever play whack-a-mole unless the community have the ability to police themselves. And teleportation is not a player driven action (I hope!). The article called this the God solution where griefers are smited from above. I'm recalling an alternative that I experienced where a high fidelity game allowed for players to decide and carry out justice on other players. The company did not need to expend a great deal of time and energy policing the world.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    And teleportation is not a player driven action (I hope!). Happened in MUDs. Also, it's basically the main mode of transportation in space MMOs.
- taneq 8y ago
  > Just give everyone the XP. (This is an example of why XP is silly.) There are already MMOs that have done this. The one such that I'm familiar with is Guild Wars 2, which is entirely designed around collaborative-only player interactions. All players hitting a mob will get the XP. All players get their own copies of resource nodes. You can just join in to group quests without being in the group, and everyone wins. There are still ways to grief other players, though. For example, there's one world event I stumbled into where some mobs spawn, and if they're not killed in a certain amount of time, they spawn a boss mob. Not knowing this, I happily completed the first event... and got cussed out by a raid group that was waiting nearby for the big guy to spawn. I'm sure someone who actually wanted to disadvantage other players would find many more such examples.
  - amitp 8y ago
    I love it when everyone gets XP. Realm of the Mad God (2009) did this too — you don't have to formally join a group to be part of the action, public quests, coop play, everyone gets XP, everyone gets loot, everyone wins.
boomlinde 8y ago
Allowing groups of a certain size of players to drag griefers into prison cells could solve the problem. I agree that that's some kind of violence, but it doesn't necessitate violence in the PvP sense.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago

There are many ways. I've been planning a MMORPG for some time with rules to ensure player cooperation over griefing, without PVP violence. Using self-control and social pressures.

stcredzero 8y ago

"theft" of assets in the commons that the victim was trying to earn, such as dealing the killing blow for XP after another player did most of the work. Just give everyone the XP. (This is an example of why XP is silly.) There are already MMOs that have done this. Without PvP in player-governed game worlds, you can't even really enforce simple jail time. What if you teleported those player's characters into room with no doors? (Or a swimming pool with no ladder.)

Steltek 8y ago
The XP example is just one of many creative ways of causing trouble within a games rules. You'll forever play whack-a-mole unless the community have the ability to police themselves. And teleportation is not a player driven action (I hope!). The article called this the God solution where griefers are smited from above. I'm recalling an alternative that I experienced where a high fidelity game allowed for players to decide and carry out justice on other players. The company did not need to expend a great deal of time and energy policing the world.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  And teleportation is not a player driven action (I hope!). Happened in MUDs. Also, it's basically the main mode of transportation in space MMOs.
taneq 8y ago
> Just give everyone the XP. (This is an example of why XP is silly.) There are already MMOs that have done this. The one such that I'm familiar with is Guild Wars 2, which is entirely designed around collaborative-only player interactions. All players hitting a mob will get the XP. All players get their own copies of resource nodes. You can just join in to group quests without being in the group, and everyone wins. There are still ways to grief other players, though. For example, there's one world event I stumbled into where some mobs spawn, and if they're not killed in a certain amount of time, they spawn a boss mob. Not knowing this, I happily completed the first event... and got cussed out by a raid group that was waiting nearby for the big guy to spawn. I'm sure someone who actually wanted to disadvantage other players would find many more such examples.
- amitp 8y ago
  I love it when everyone gets XP. Realm of the Mad God (2009) did this too — you don't have to formally join a group to be part of the action, public quests, coop play, everyone gets XP, everyone gets loot, everyone wins.

boomlinde 8y ago

Allowing groups of a certain size of players to drag griefers into prison cells could solve the problem. I agree that that's some kind of violence, but it doesn't necessitate violence in the PvP sense.