4 ms·

So what, exactly, are these terrible effects? Wikipedia lists collapsed veins, pneumonia, suppressed liver function and infection as long term risks. Which seem

So what, exactly, are these terrible effects? Wikipedia lists collapsed veins, pneumonia, suppressed liver function and infection as long term risks. Which seem pretty bad until you look at the long term risks of alcohol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol

carbocation 16y ago
Talking about the direct health risks of heroin is like talking about the speed of a missile that is coming at you. Sure, a high-velocity object will kill you, but even if someone brought the thing in on a wheelbarrow, it's still packed with explosives and will do its job quite well. This is why I'm not talking about heroin's direct health risks and instead focusing on the bigger picture. Heroin's terrible effects are a consequence of physiology and behavior, not necessarily of cellular toxicity. The way that heroin makes people feel is so powerful that it outcompetes all other motivators. Therefore, heroin has the habit of dominating the lives of its users, enslaving them to itself and its pursuit. The addictive potential of alcohol is nothing like that of heroin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#Addictive_Potential http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#Addictive_...
- anthonyb 16y ago
  Yeah, so it's more addictive than alcohol. But if you can get a clean, dependable supply for relatively little money, the risks are not that bad. Certainly not enough to completely ban it or describe it with the hyperbole that you do.
  - carbocation 16y ago
    What makes you think that I'm being hyperbolic, rather than merely descriptive?
    - anthonyb 16y ago
      Because you don't seem to have an accurate idea of what heroin is or does, and you're not basing any of your argument on fact, other than the "heroin is very addictive" part. In my opinion, the fact that it's so addictive makes it more of a candidate for legalisation or at least greater availability, not less. If you have a population of addicts who will do anything for a fix, and the only people who will supply it to them are hardened criminals who are also into prostitution, extortion, theft, etc. what do you think will happen?
      - carbocation 16y ago
        I'm basing my arguments on my experience taking care of heroin addicts in inner-city Baltimore. What exactly are you basing your arguments on? And note that while you are arguing that we should legalize heroin, I'm not taking a position on that. I'm merely arguing (1) that legalization is not going to happen politically so you shouldn't weigh down the marijuana legislation with this, and (2) that heroin is intrinsically devastating even when you remove the drug dealers, etc. Point #1 is based on my hunch, but I doubt many would disagree, and point #2 is based on my experience. Do you have evidence or experience that contradicts mine, or are you just speaking hypothetically?
        anthonyb 16y ago
        > I'm basing my arguments on my experience taking care of heroin addicts in inner-city Baltimore. Nice. Maybe try leading with that next time, instead of "Heroin is a wheelbarrow full of rockets." or something, hey? :) I'm not arguing point #1 - I'm arguing that your point #2 is flawed. Your experience likely biases you in that direction, since you will have seen the absolute worst cases of addiction, instead of someone like a lawyer or executive who can afford to have a heroin habit without it bankrupting them, or who isn't addicted.
        tptacek 16y ago
        Hey, 'carbocation, does Hacker News still remind you of your first year of med school? ;)

carbocation 16y ago

Talking about the direct health risks of heroin is like talking about the speed of a missile that is coming at you. Sure, a high-velocity object will kill you, but even if someone brought the thing in on a wheelbarrow, it's still packed with explosives and will do its job quite well. This is why I'm not talking about heroin's direct health risks and instead focusing on the bigger picture. Heroin's terrible effects are a consequence of physiology and behavior, not necessarily of cellular toxicity. The way that heroin makes people feel is so powerful that it outcompetes all other motivators. Therefore, heroin has the habit of dominating the lives of its users, enslaving them to itself and its pursuit. The addictive potential of alcohol is nothing like that of heroin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#Addictive_Potential http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#Addictive_...

anthonyb 16y ago
Yeah, so it's more addictive than alcohol. But if you can get a clean, dependable supply for relatively little money, the risks are not that bad. Certainly not enough to completely ban it or describe it with the hyperbole that you do.
- carbocation 16y ago
  What makes you think that I'm being hyperbolic, rather than merely descriptive?
  - anthonyb 16y ago
    Because you don't seem to have an accurate idea of what heroin is or does, and you're not basing any of your argument on fact, other than the "heroin is very addictive" part. In my opinion, the fact that it's so addictive makes it more of a candidate for legalisation or at least greater availability, not less. If you have a population of addicts who will do anything for a fix, and the only people who will supply it to them are hardened criminals who are also into prostitution, extortion, theft, etc. what do you think will happen?
    - carbocation 16y ago
      I'm basing my arguments on my experience taking care of heroin addicts in inner-city Baltimore. What exactly are you basing your arguments on? And note that while you are arguing that we should legalize heroin, I'm not taking a position on that. I'm merely arguing (1) that legalization is not going to happen politically so you shouldn't weigh down the marijuana legislation with this, and (2) that heroin is intrinsically devastating even when you remove the drug dealers, etc. Point #1 is based on my hunch, but I doubt many would disagree, and point #2 is based on my experience. Do you have evidence or experience that contradicts mine, or are you just speaking hypothetically?
      - anthonyb 16y ago
        > I'm basing my arguments on my experience taking care of heroin addicts in inner-city Baltimore. Nice. Maybe try leading with that next time, instead of "Heroin is a wheelbarrow full of rockets." or something, hey? :) I'm not arguing point #1 - I'm arguing that your point #2 is flawed. Your experience likely biases you in that direction, since you will have seen the absolute worst cases of addiction, instead of someone like a lawyer or executive who can afford to have a heroin habit without it bankrupting them, or who isn't addicted.
        tptacek 16y ago
        Hey, 'carbocation, does Hacker News still remind you of your first year of med school? ;)