5 ms·

The ideas you're saying are quite common in the West, as you say, but that's not the attitude in NYC. Everyone realizes it's worth funding and fixing. The dispu

The ideas you're saying are quite common in the West, as you say, but that's not the attitude in NYC. Everyone realizes it's worth funding and fixing. The disputes are about the who, what, how, and paid by whom.

InitialLastName 8y ago
The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is <0.5 of the state population, but the city is an outsized chunk of the state's total economy, the state uses funding of the transit system as a weapon to get the city to acquiesce to other demands. Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.
- eric_h 8y ago
  > Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries I'm assuming you're using the "worthless" adjective only for the streetcars - I use the NYC Ferry regularly (a stop opened near my apt last year) and it's way better than the subway. I have to walk a bit further on the other side, but it's still way more comfortable.
  - deminature 8y ago
    Streetcars aren't even necessarily worthless. They're called trams in Australia and Sydney has recently rolled out a network after seeing how heavily utilized they are in Melbourne, and how convenient they are for short-distance travel. Pretty much everyone who works in the city has a tram trip somewhere in their commute. Provided the tracks run past places people need to go, there's no reason they need to be worthless.
    - umichguy 8y ago
      Melbourne trams are awesome! Sure, they're not everywhere or go everywhere but for near the city center and some main routes they make so much sense.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Same in Brussels. And in Lisbon they're also touristic attractions: http://www.lisbonstopover.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lx-3.jpg http://www.lisbonstopover.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lx-...
  - bradleyjg 8y ago
    It may be useful for you but in the grand scheme all the new ferries cover only a trivial percentage of the total number of daily trips.
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
      And the ferries are heavily subsidized and very expensive to operate, and they pollute quite heavily. They don't compare remotely favorably to the subway along any axis except start-up cost (it's cheaper to buy a boat and build some piers than to build a subway tunnel).
      - ricardoreis 8y ago
        except start-up cost Which is, well, hugely significant when you think about it.
        CydeWeys 8y ago
        Cities should have a planning timeframe for infrastructure improvements with a horizon longer than a couple years.
        ricardoreis 8y ago
        Well, yeah. And they should probably be having discussions based on something beside snarky retorts and popcorn-throwing too, I guess. But I guess those discussions will need to happen elsewhere.
        bradleyjg 8y ago
        Even if you could afford to run enough ferries to make a dent, which you can’t, they simply don’t have the bandwidth. Some people tried to make the math work for the L shutdown and even if you had a line of ferries just following each other as close as safely possible it wouldn’t be nearly enough. Subways are incredibly efficient at moving large numbers of people.
  - eugmill 8y ago
    I use it as well but it moves far fewer people at a much higher running cost. I love the ferry but it's not a viable replacement.
    - ricardoreis 8y ago
      No one would consider suggesting it as a "replacement" for surface transport. However, it is a valuable augment to the surface system. The point is that it helps "connect the dots" (providing more options for people to get from A to B) - hence making the system more effective as a whole.
- victor106 8y ago
  MTA was looted by the state. It is reasonably profitable but all those profits are being spent by the state for other non MTA activities. https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/infrastructure/tracking-andrew-cuomo-funding-and-raiding-of-the-mta.html https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/infrastructur... The best public transport model is the one in London.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Incorrect. According to the NYT, redirection of MTA funds amounts to about $1.5 billion over 20 years. That’s $75 million per year, or what MTA spends in 2 days.
- mistersquid 8y ago
  >Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is <0.5 of the state population[…] I did a quick and dirty check on Google for "new york state population" [0] and " "new york city population" [1] and the percentage I get is 43%. [0] https://imgur.com/a/2zkmdjm https://imgur.com/a/2zkmdjm [1] https://imgur.com/a/904hwM2 https://imgur.com/a/904hwM2 EDIT: As did a few others, I read "<0.5" as "<0.5%".
  - iooi 8y ago
    You're both right: 43% < 0.5, 1 = 100%
  - dexterdog 8y ago
    I read his statement as .5% first as well and then realized that he meant 50% because otherwise there would have to be 1.6B people in NY state to make the number work.
  - vesinisa 8y ago
    .5 = ½ = 50%
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- zjaffee 8y ago
  People keep saying that the street car will be worthless, but I simply don't buy it. It connects all of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the city, where there have been increasing large amounts of effort around economic development within the areas that these places connect, where it will massively increase the value and in turn ability to build real estate along the waterfront, as one of the key determiners of land value in NYC is access to transit.
  - cc439 8y ago
    What does a streetcar do that buses (or articulated buses) can't if they're provided the same traffic priority?
    - repolfx 8y ago
      Trams run on metal rails because steel has a much lower rolling resistance than rubber, and suffers less wear and tear. So you can carry more people more frequently with less maintenance.
  - acjohnson55 8y ago
    To me, the problem is poor connectivity to the rest of the train network.
- ricardoreis 8y ago
  Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless ferries; Worthless? The ferries are one of the few unequivocally positive things to have happened to the city in recent decades.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  Surely the city could give extra funds to the MTA if it wanted to?
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    The state would take them out. It controls the MTA.

InitialLastName 8y ago

The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is <0.5 of the state population, but the city is an outsized chunk of the state's total economy, the state uses funding of the transit system as a weapon to get the city to acquiesce to other demands. Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.

eric_h 8y ago
> Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries I'm assuming you're using the "worthless" adjective only for the streetcars - I use the NYC Ferry regularly (a stop opened near my apt last year) and it's way better than the subway. I have to walk a bit further on the other side, but it's still way more comfortable.
- deminature 8y ago
  Streetcars aren't even necessarily worthless. They're called trams in Australia and Sydney has recently rolled out a network after seeing how heavily utilized they are in Melbourne, and how convenient they are for short-distance travel. Pretty much everyone who works in the city has a tram trip somewhere in their commute. Provided the tracks run past places people need to go, there's no reason they need to be worthless.
  - umichguy 8y ago
    Melbourne trams are awesome! Sure, they're not everywhere or go everywhere but for near the city center and some main routes they make so much sense.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Same in Brussels. And in Lisbon they're also touristic attractions: http://www.lisbonstopover.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lx-3.jpg http://www.lisbonstopover.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lx-...
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  It may be useful for you but in the grand scheme all the new ferries cover only a trivial percentage of the total number of daily trips.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    And the ferries are heavily subsidized and very expensive to operate, and they pollute quite heavily. They don't compare remotely favorably to the subway along any axis except start-up cost (it's cheaper to buy a boat and build some piers than to build a subway tunnel).
    - ricardoreis 8y ago
      except start-up cost Which is, well, hugely significant when you think about it.
      - CydeWeys 8y ago
        Cities should have a planning timeframe for infrastructure improvements with a horizon longer than a couple years.
        ricardoreis 8y ago
        Well, yeah. And they should probably be having discussions based on something beside snarky retorts and popcorn-throwing too, I guess. But I guess those discussions will need to happen elsewhere.
      - bradleyjg 8y ago
        Even if you could afford to run enough ferries to make a dent, which you can’t, they simply don’t have the bandwidth. Some people tried to make the math work for the L shutdown and even if you had a line of ferries just following each other as close as safely possible it wouldn’t be nearly enough. Subways are incredibly efficient at moving large numbers of people.
- eugmill 8y ago
  I use it as well but it moves far fewer people at a much higher running cost. I love the ferry but it's not a viable replacement.
  - ricardoreis 8y ago
    No one would consider suggesting it as a "replacement" for surface transport. However, it is a valuable augment to the surface system. The point is that it helps "connect the dots" (providing more options for people to get from A to B) - hence making the system more effective as a whole.
victor106 8y ago
MTA was looted by the state. It is reasonably profitable but all those profits are being spent by the state for other non MTA activities. https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/infrastructure/tracking-andrew-cuomo-funding-and-raiding-of-the-mta.html https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/infrastructur... The best public transport model is the one in London.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Incorrect. According to the NYT, redirection of MTA funds amounts to about $1.5 billion over 20 years. That’s $75 million per year, or what MTA spends in 2 days.
mistersquid 8y ago
>Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is <0.5 of the state population[…] I did a quick and dirty check on Google for "new york state population" [0] and " "new york city population" [1] and the percentage I get is 43%. [0] https://imgur.com/a/2zkmdjm https://imgur.com/a/2zkmdjm [1] https://imgur.com/a/904hwM2 https://imgur.com/a/904hwM2 EDIT: As did a few others, I read "<0.5" as "<0.5%".
- iooi 8y ago
  You're both right: 43% < 0.5, 1 = 100%
- dexterdog 8y ago
  I read his statement as .5% first as well and then realized that he meant 50% because otherwise there would have to be 1.6B people in NY state to make the number work.
- vesinisa 8y ago
  .5 = ½ = 50%
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
zjaffee 8y ago
People keep saying that the street car will be worthless, but I simply don't buy it. It connects all of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the city, where there have been increasing large amounts of effort around economic development within the areas that these places connect, where it will massively increase the value and in turn ability to build real estate along the waterfront, as one of the key determiners of land value in NYC is access to transit.
- cc439 8y ago
  What does a streetcar do that buses (or articulated buses) can't if they're provided the same traffic priority?
  - repolfx 8y ago
    Trams run on metal rails because steel has a much lower rolling resistance than rubber, and suffers less wear and tear. So you can carry more people more frequently with less maintenance.
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  To me, the problem is poor connectivity to the rest of the train network.
ricardoreis 8y ago
Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless ferries; Worthless? The ferries are one of the few unequivocally positive things to have happened to the city in recent decades.
nicoburns 8y ago
Surely the city could give extra funds to the MTA if it wanted to?
- scarejunba 8y ago
  The state would take them out. It controls the MTA.