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I've always found this curious since Linux fans usually mention the high usage of Android as Linux usage. The people usually think of GNU/Linux when they think

by rsre 8y ago

I've always found this curious since Linux fans usually mention the high usage of Android as Linux usage. The people usually think of GNU/Linux when they think about using Linux but the truth is Android is far from that. Be it the lack of GNU utils, not using a mainline kernel or the myriad of blobs and proprietary stuff bolted on top.

craftyguy 8y ago
It's not clear what you are curious about. You can run GNU/Linux with out of tree modules (e.g. proprietary nvidia graphics driver). That doesn't change the fact that you're running a (now probably tainted) Linux kernel. I don't think anyone is thinking of a GNU/Linux desktop environment when they think "Android runs Linux!", they are quite literally thinking "Android uses the Linux kernel." They are not wrong.
- rsre 8y ago
  Of course. I wasn't talking about the population of HN, I mean it in a broader sense, people who know GNU/Linux is a thing but don't know or care enough to realise the differences. I'm curious about what is there to celebrate in some huge corp using some free software in a completely cornered use that gives little to no freedom to its users. I'm sorry if my points are not clear. As it has been evidenced english is not my first language.
  - izacus 8y ago
    > I'm curious about what is there to celebrate in some huge corp using some free software in a completely cornered use that gives little to no freedom to its users. Huge amount of money poured into development of said opensource software - including the patches in the article you're commenting on. Major opensource projects are (and have for years) receiving most contributions from developers in Microsoft, Google, Intel, RedHat, Pivotal, and many others.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    Ah, I see your point. I suppose there are folks who know GNU/Linux is a thing, but don't understand the distinction between "it uses a Linux kernel" and "it uses a Linux kernel and gnu-friendly environment." In which case they would wrongly equate Android == Linux == GNU/Linux. > As it has been evidenced english is not my first language. No problem, I'd say that your English seems great, better than some native English speakers I know. English is my first language and it's easy for me to be unclear :D
newnewpdro 8y ago
Agreed, the Linux kernel is nothing more than a board support package for Android. Android applications are not Linux applications. And Fuschia/Zircon are clearly efforts replace the kernel.
derefr 8y ago
Unlike most other environments, though, it is very simple to create an Android application which embeds and launches a Linux userland, without any virtualization or syscall-ABI translation being required. See, for example, https://termux.com/ https://termux.com/ ChromeOS is also "Linux" in this sense, because of Crouton.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Kind of, https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Differences_from_Linux https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Differences_from_Linux
pjmlp 8y ago
Many of them never actually developed for Android as such. Official NDK APIs are ISO C and C++ standard libraries, a couple of portable libraries like zlib and Android specific APIs. As of Android 7, any application that tries to link to on-device libraries or do calls that aren't whitelisted just gets killed. Yes one might successfully do Linux specific calls, but given they aren't part of the stable Android NDK API, any OEM is free to bork those attemps. In practice, being based on Linux doesn't mean anything for app developers. Only for those doing system space development, which are Google and the OEMs, noone else.

by rsre 8y ago

craftyguy 8y ago

It's not clear what you are curious about. You can run GNU/Linux with out of tree modules (e.g. proprietary nvidia graphics driver). That doesn't change the fact that you're running a (now probably tainted) Linux kernel. I don't think anyone is thinking of a GNU/Linux desktop environment when they think "Android runs Linux!", they are quite literally thinking "Android uses the Linux kernel." They are not wrong.

rsre 8y ago
Of course. I wasn't talking about the population of HN, I mean it in a broader sense, people who know GNU/Linux is a thing but don't know or care enough to realise the differences. I'm curious about what is there to celebrate in some huge corp using some free software in a completely cornered use that gives little to no freedom to its users. I'm sorry if my points are not clear. As it has been evidenced english is not my first language.
- izacus 8y ago
  > I'm curious about what is there to celebrate in some huge corp using some free software in a completely cornered use that gives little to no freedom to its users. Huge amount of money poured into development of said opensource software - including the patches in the article you're commenting on. Major opensource projects are (and have for years) receiving most contributions from developers in Microsoft, Google, Intel, RedHat, Pivotal, and many others.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  Ah, I see your point. I suppose there are folks who know GNU/Linux is a thing, but don't understand the distinction between "it uses a Linux kernel" and "it uses a Linux kernel and gnu-friendly environment." In which case they would wrongly equate Android == Linux == GNU/Linux. > As it has been evidenced english is not my first language. No problem, I'd say that your English seems great, better than some native English speakers I know. English is my first language and it's easy for me to be unclear :D

newnewpdro 8y ago

Agreed, the Linux kernel is nothing more than a board support package for Android. Android applications are not Linux applications. And Fuschia/Zircon are clearly efforts replace the kernel.

derefr 8y ago

Unlike most other environments, though, it is very simple to create an Android application which embeds and launches a Linux userland, without any virtualization or syscall-ABI translation being required. See, for example, https://termux.com/ https://termux.com/ ChromeOS is also "Linux" in this sense, because of Crouton.

pjmlp 8y ago
Kind of, https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Differences_from_Linux https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Differences_from_Linux

pjmlp 8y ago

Many of them never actually developed for Android as such. Official NDK APIs are ISO C and C++ standard libraries, a couple of portable libraries like zlib and Android specific APIs. As of Android 7, any application that tries to link to on-device libraries or do calls that aren't whitelisted just gets killed. Yes one might successfully do Linux specific calls, but given they aren't part of the stable Android NDK API, any OEM is free to bork those attemps. In practice, being based on Linux doesn't mean anything for app developers. Only for those doing system space development, which are Google and the OEMs, noone else.