5 ms·

Paying conductors a living wage isn't nearly as expensive to the agency (and the state, and we the taxpayers and riders) as mismanaged and corruptly nepotistic

Paying conductors a living wage isn't nearly as expensive to the agency (and the state, and we the taxpayers and riders) as mismanaged and corruptly nepotistic multi-billion dollar contracts for construction.

yholio 8y ago
On the other hand, paying living wages to thousands of unnecessary workers is quite expensive, regardless if they are employees or contractors. Unions work on both goals simultaneously, increasing wages but also providing job security to their base, inserting strong restrictions on who can perform certain labors etc. The more employees, the higher the power of the union, it's not like a competitor could spring up and kill their host. It's not a white/black issue, laborers need protection but should not use a privileged position in the economy to seek a rent at the expense of everybody else.
- chadlavi 8y ago
  This is an agency that still uses fabric-wrapped wire and vacuum tubes. Those people are far from unnecessary. Though I'm sure the MTA will pay billions more in contracts over the next few years to halfway automate a few small parts of their jobs.
- sonar_un 8y ago
  The MTA's union has kept unneeded workers employed. One of the main issues is having two people per train employed when almost every other transit system in the world uses only one person per train. On top of this, but actively lobbying against having driverless trains and other cost-saving technologies leaves NYC with the most expensive and antiquated system in the world
- MatekCopatek 8y ago
  But isn't this exactly what you're supposed to do in capitalism? Use your privileged position in economy to earn money (by definition at the expense of other people)? Now, I agree that it's not a very moral position, but we don't expect property owners in SF to keep rents reasonable. They should charge as much as they can, that's the only thing that makes sense from a business perspective!
  - nine_k 8y ago
    "Use your privilege to earn money" is feudalism. Capitalism (idealized) is when you use get an advantage by selling superior goods or services, while competing with others, without leveraging any state-given privilege. We need (even) more capitalism in the US, if anything.
  - Endy 8y ago
    The thing about this is that the MTA and NYC Subway are NOT for-profit businesses. They're part of the public sector and shouldn't be held to a profit motive. Similarly, the Unions connected to City transportation should recognize that the system they're vampirically draining isn't about profit, and working for it should be in the mindset of a public service, not a 'get rich quick' scheme.
    - ahje 8y ago
      The workers might be working in order to make money though. Making a profit isn't just for businesses.
exabrial 8y ago
Except when conductors aren't needed or necessary. Having a fully autonomous rail system is a much simpler problem than autonomous cars.
- wefarrell 8y ago
  Are there any currently in existence?
  - mc32 8y ago
    There are automated monorails in quite a few places round the world.
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    Yes, in several places https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_... See the GoA4 list
  - xxpor 8y ago
    Yes, in fact the L train is automated (or was in the process)
  - notyourday 8y ago
    Yes, L line in NYC is automatic train control system. If one is to walk to the end of every L train platform, one would see a sign that says "Automated Train Control System is in Effect" It requires conductors because of the union contract requires them. Not only it requires an engineer "driving" the train (aka pushing a button "I'm here") but also the second one looking to make sure that the train doors can be closed ( or closing them on the person ) So just on the L train MTA can cut 50% of the conductors by fully engaging automated train control and merging door checker engineer duties with the "I'm here" engineer duties.
  - huebomont 8y ago
    In NYC the L and soon the 7 could be operated with one person, but the union insists two remain onboard for "safety."
cynicalkane 8y ago
This is wrong in many ways. * Unionized workers make very good money in New York. * Unions are a primary political driver behind those expensive contracts. * There's more to unions than conductors. Construction and maintenance, for example. * The unions routinely put up strong opposition to any meaningful expense or quality control. They also strongly oppose any modernization attempts that might threaten their jobs. They've opposed electronic signaling and control for decades. The worse the subways are, the better it is for them. * Unions are politically untouchable. No matter what the consequences for the public, people are willing to leap to the defense of the noble workingman. Actually, the noble workingman who needs a "living wage" is riding the subways, not maintaining them. The poor and desperate are found among the five million people who ride the subway every day. Transportation is a public good. It shouldn't be beholden to a small group of highly paid laborers.
- T-hawk 8y ago
  The unions are a classic case of "if you're being paid to solve a problem, the last thing you want to do is solve it."
- joering2 8y ago
  * Unionized workers make very good money in New York. I didn't believe a friend of mine who only finish college was making $218,000 a year basically for early morning train track cleanups (device to pickup trash, stay away from 3rd rail), until I saw his bi-weekly paycheck with my own eyes. He's been doing that for last 5 years and they hire more people to do the same. What an insult to anyone with MBA, PhD., anyone pretty much who doesn't work for Union.
  - andyburke 8y ago
    Maybe we should form a union?
    - jtolmar 8y ago
      Can you imagine the bargaining power that tech workers would have if they unionized? Our industry relies on tech workers for training and hiring, so hiring scabs during a strike would be basically impossible.
neom 8y ago
That could go to another change: the procurement process, so that smaller companies can compete.
cascom 8y ago
Employee costs are 60% of the expenses for the MTA [1] and employees are making $30/hr + generous pension and medical benefits[2], I'm not sure how you can possibly justify your position. That being said, paying union construction workers $1k/day (!) to do nothing is pretty egregious as well [3] [1] http://web.mta.info/news/pdf/MTA-2019-Final-Proposed-Budget-Nov-Financial-Plan-2019-2022-Presentation.pdf http://web.mta.info/news/pdf/MTA-2019-Final-Proposed-Budget-... [2] https://www.empirecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/MTA-Payroll-Release-2013_060320141.pdf https://www.empirecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/MTA-... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...
- stefan_ 8y ago
  What are you saying, employee costs are the majority of expense for just about any business. It's the whole point of the economy.
  - cascom 8y ago
    Read the parent

yholio 8y ago

On the other hand, paying living wages to thousands of unnecessary workers is quite expensive, regardless if they are employees or contractors. Unions work on both goals simultaneously, increasing wages but also providing job security to their base, inserting strong restrictions on who can perform certain labors etc. The more employees, the higher the power of the union, it's not like a competitor could spring up and kill their host. It's not a white/black issue, laborers need protection but should not use a privileged position in the economy to seek a rent at the expense of everybody else.

chadlavi 8y ago
This is an agency that still uses fabric-wrapped wire and vacuum tubes. Those people are far from unnecessary. Though I'm sure the MTA will pay billions more in contracts over the next few years to halfway automate a few small parts of their jobs.
sonar_un 8y ago
The MTA's union has kept unneeded workers employed. One of the main issues is having two people per train employed when almost every other transit system in the world uses only one person per train. On top of this, but actively lobbying against having driverless trains and other cost-saving technologies leaves NYC with the most expensive and antiquated system in the world
MatekCopatek 8y ago
But isn't this exactly what you're supposed to do in capitalism? Use your privileged position in economy to earn money (by definition at the expense of other people)? Now, I agree that it's not a very moral position, but we don't expect property owners in SF to keep rents reasonable. They should charge as much as they can, that's the only thing that makes sense from a business perspective!
- nine_k 8y ago
  "Use your privilege to earn money" is feudalism. Capitalism (idealized) is when you use get an advantage by selling superior goods or services, while competing with others, without leveraging any state-given privilege. We need (even) more capitalism in the US, if anything.
- Endy 8y ago
  The thing about this is that the MTA and NYC Subway are NOT for-profit businesses. They're part of the public sector and shouldn't be held to a profit motive. Similarly, the Unions connected to City transportation should recognize that the system they're vampirically draining isn't about profit, and working for it should be in the mindset of a public service, not a 'get rich quick' scheme.
  - ahje 8y ago
    The workers might be working in order to make money though. Making a profit isn't just for businesses.

exabrial 8y ago

Except when conductors aren't needed or necessary. Having a fully autonomous rail system is a much simpler problem than autonomous cars.

wefarrell 8y ago
Are there any currently in existence?
- mc32 8y ago
  There are automated monorails in quite a few places round the world.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  Yes, in several places https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_... See the GoA4 list
- xxpor 8y ago
  Yes, in fact the L train is automated (or was in the process)
- notyourday 8y ago
  Yes, L line in NYC is automatic train control system. If one is to walk to the end of every L train platform, one would see a sign that says "Automated Train Control System is in Effect" It requires conductors because of the union contract requires them. Not only it requires an engineer "driving" the train (aka pushing a button "I'm here") but also the second one looking to make sure that the train doors can be closed ( or closing them on the person ) So just on the L train MTA can cut 50% of the conductors by fully engaging automated train control and merging door checker engineer duties with the "I'm here" engineer duties.
- huebomont 8y ago
  In NYC the L and soon the 7 could be operated with one person, but the union insists two remain onboard for "safety."

cynicalkane 8y ago

This is wrong in many ways. * Unionized workers make very good money in New York. * Unions are a primary political driver behind those expensive contracts. * There's more to unions than conductors. Construction and maintenance, for example. * The unions routinely put up strong opposition to any meaningful expense or quality control. They also strongly oppose any modernization attempts that might threaten their jobs. They've opposed electronic signaling and control for decades. The worse the subways are, the better it is for them. * Unions are politically untouchable. No matter what the consequences for the public, people are willing to leap to the defense of the noble workingman. Actually, the noble workingman who needs a "living wage" is riding the subways, not maintaining them. The poor and desperate are found among the five million people who ride the subway every day. Transportation is a public good. It shouldn't be beholden to a small group of highly paid laborers.

T-hawk 8y ago
The unions are a classic case of "if you're being paid to solve a problem, the last thing you want to do is solve it."
joering2 8y ago
* Unionized workers make very good money in New York. I didn't believe a friend of mine who only finish college was making $218,000 a year basically for early morning train track cleanups (device to pickup trash, stay away from 3rd rail), until I saw his bi-weekly paycheck with my own eyes. He's been doing that for last 5 years and they hire more people to do the same. What an insult to anyone with MBA, PhD., anyone pretty much who doesn't work for Union.
- andyburke 8y ago
  Maybe we should form a union?
  - jtolmar 8y ago
    Can you imagine the bargaining power that tech workers would have if they unionized? Our industry relies on tech workers for training and hiring, so hiring scabs during a strike would be basically impossible.

neom 8y ago

That could go to another change: the procurement process, so that smaller companies can compete.

cascom 8y ago

Employee costs are 60% of the expenses for the MTA [1] and employees are making $30/hr + generous pension and medical benefits[2], I'm not sure how you can possibly justify your position. That being said, paying union construction workers $1k/day (!) to do nothing is pretty egregious as well [3] [1] http://web.mta.info/news/pdf/MTA-2019-Final-Proposed-Budget-Nov-Financial-Plan-2019-2022-Presentation.pdf http://web.mta.info/news/pdf/MTA-2019-Final-Proposed-Budget-... [2] https://www.empirecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/MTA-Payroll-Release-2013_060320141.pdf https://www.empirecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/MTA-... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...

stefan_ 8y ago
What are you saying, employee costs are the majority of expense for just about any business. It's the whole point of the economy.
- cascom 8y ago
  Read the parent