8 ms·

Django core no more

170 points by jsmeaton 8y ago

merlincorey 8y ago
This is an in-depth discussion of Django's proposed governance changes from a long-time committer (since 2007), release manager, and board member of the Django Software Foundation. It's also an interesting mini history of the governance of the project and formation of things like the DSF. Essentially they plan to dissolve the Django Core and make the development of Django more open to new contributors.
frankwiles 8y ago
This has been a long time coming and overdue to help “open” things up. Thank you James for taking a leading role to help make it happen! I and other DSF/Django members will likely be around here to answer any questions anyone may have. My biggest hope is that this isn’t seen as scary or concerning to anyone. It should not be scary to any current users or contributors to Django.
- charred_toast 8y ago
  If it means anything, reading the first part of it inspired me to want to contribute to it, if at all ever possible, because I believe Django is important enough to sustain and to recognize these issues before they evolve into problems is good idea.
jamestimmins 8y ago
Personally, I find this quite timely, because I recently wanted to get involved in open source and looked into working with Django. Their ticket tracking system looks far easier to follow and get involved with than many other large projects, but still I find zero tickets marked 'easy pickings' and 'unassigned'. This may be the wrong response, but my takeaway is that the project is too far along for new contributors, so it's better to try and get involved with smaller, less well known projects where I can contribute. In part, I'm commenting because I would love for this to not be true, and would be quite excited if someone pointed out flaws in my understanding!
- pjtr 8y ago
  If you like that ticket tracking system (Trac), maybe consider getting involved with that itself as well: https://trac.edgewall.org/query?status=new&keywords=~bitesized&desc=1&order=id https://trac.edgewall.org/query?status=new&keywords=~bitesiz... 'bitesized' tickets are "small work items, ideal for new contributors to dive into the code". https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/HowToContribute https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/HowToContribute
  - jamestimmins 8y ago
    Oh this is quite cool, I assumed it was developed in-house. Thanks very much!
  - bionoid 8y ago
    Just out of random interest - does anyone know what happened to the Apache Bloodhound project [0], which was based on Trac? I was somewhat optimistic when it started.. let's be real, Trac has many serious shortcomings, but it's still extremely practical for a small team of technical users. No progress was made on GenericTrac [1] whatsoever for the 5+ years I ran Trac in production and followed the project. Bloodhound made a single release, and then I never heard a word about it again. [0] http://bloodhound.apache.org/ http://bloodhound.apache.org/ [1] https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/GenericTrac https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/GenericTrac
    - pjtr 8y ago
      It seems not that many people have enough time and long-term interest in contributing significant improvements to such projects. GenericTrac was mainly a plan by Christian Boos, who worked a lot on Trac in ~2005 - 2013, but has not actively worked on it much after that. Apache Bloodhound was mainly triggered by one company (WANdisco), which has lost interest in it. Of the few remaining people, Ryan J Ollos has since become a Trac core developer instead, and has been keeping very active there. Recently Gary Martin (formerly(?) WANdisco) "restarted" Apache Bloodhound as a Django app, not based on Trac anymore.[2] > Trac has many serious shortcomings I don't disagree, but would be interested in what you think they are. [2] https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@bloodhound.apache.org:2018-10 https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@bloodhound.apache.org...
lsh 8y ago
It's come a long way and this is yet another interesting feature Django is incorporating. I hope it injects the fresh blood they're after. Did anybody else feel inspired by a 'rapid web development' platform in 2005? https://tech.slashdot.org/story/05/08/02/0051258/django-pythons-rapid-web-development-framework https://tech.slashdot.org/story/05/08/02/0051258/django-pyth...
btown 8y ago
I wonder if the continued use of Trac and a mailing list in a modern, Github-centric world is holding back contributions, perhaps even more so than the need to reshuffle responsibilities among existing contributors. Consider that if a Django user wants to contribute with an account they're already logged into, the only thing they can see is https://github.com/django/django/pulls https://github.com/django/django/pulls - a wall of structure and external references, with no clear way to suggest features. To the community's credit, people gently redirect "stray" pull requests to the proper channels, but this still has to feel like a form of rejection to well-meaning developers! Compare this to https://github.com/facebook/react/issues https://github.com/facebook/react/issues and https://github.com/rails/rails/issues https://github.com/rails/rails/issues - inviting colors, a clear way to raise issues one click away from the codebase itself, centralized discussion of those issues, automatic links between PRs and issues. Nobody is left behind; any suggestion can become a discussion with decision-makers in place. This is what the modern developer has come to expect. I love Django as a framework - it's a set of abstractions that make a ton of sense together, but simultaneously are much more explicit and easier to dive into than Rails. I can command-click my way through the entire stack in VS Code and know exactly what's going on; when there's a customization to make, there's almost always two or three hooks I can use to make it happen. And it pains me that there seems to be a fear of change and a fragmentation of contributor tooling that's holding it back from evolving. I don't know that Trac -> Github is the best path, but I hope that this is the first of numerous innovations that the core and board intend to discuss earnestly over the coming years. EDIT: As I consider what I've written above, I'm thinking about a concept of TTFK - "Time To First Keystroke" that's intended as part of a contribution. Once you start writing an issue or coding a PR, assuming there's a clear path for it to get accepted, that first keypress is the start of an avalanche that gets obsessed developers deeper and deeper engaged. But if you look at the README on https://github.com/django/django https://github.com/django/django , count how many clicks it takes, and words to read, and new platforms to join, until you can type your first character on a non-documentation feature request. It's not a fun number. Process/triage is great, but you have to have a way that someone's unstructured contribution can gain structure over time without requiring them to retype it or jump through hoops.
- ubernostrum 8y ago
devxpy 8y ago
Wow, Django must be used by many of the biggest companies around. Instagram comes to mind... Its so retarded to me that companies don't have a model for paying the open source projects they built their whole infrastructure on :(
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  Not a fan of your word choice there. But it's worth noting Instagram has been a generous corporate sponsor of the DSF, and hired a Django committer several years ago. I just don't know of any company that currently has employees paid to work on Django, in the same way that, say, several big tech companies pay people to work on various parts of the Linux ecosystem.
  - nikisweeting 8y ago
    Does Eventbrite pay Andrew Godwin to work on Django? He's certainly a prolific contributor but I'm not sure if his Django work is officially sponsored by them.
  - devxpy 8y ago
    I definitely did not mean to target Instagram. We have a general problem of open source funding, and something like Django having this problem is disheartening.
- dagenix 8y ago
  That's highly problematic word choice that doesnt further the discussion at all.
  - vlogan 8y ago
    I'm triggered by the word "problematic". It was used in similar euphemisms when my country was still communist.
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  puts on Oakleys Don't use the R word!
crucialfelix 8y ago
This is a good move. I found the process of contributing to be very off putting and so I gave up.
- jsmeaton 8y ago
  Can you elaborate any more? I'd be keen on hearing about what made it so off putting and what could be done better to improve that situation.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
charlixcx 8y ago
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speedplane 8y ago
Django's stance of not supporting NoSQL and other alternative databases is such an embarrassment. Not saying they need to chase every fancy new technology, but for a "batteries included" library, they sadly miss a whole bunch of features.
techie128 8y ago
Big Django fan here. Love the project and framework. I love DRF and other plugins. I am a developer but I haven't ever felt the need to contribute for two reasons - 1) It works 2) The entry barrier is high. For instance, other than some basic documentation, I haven't seen anything more substantial "howto" to contributing including Django developer events. For instance, Carlton Gibson had a DjangoCon 2018 talk about contributing to Django. This was a good start. However, we need more meaningful engagements for example a code walk through for different areas of the Django codebase. Maybe a howto series on hacking on different parts of the codebase. This is more engaging & useful for someone who wants to contribute. It is a step beyond saying "here's a git repo, mailing list and issue tracker. Now, go forth and code!"

170 points by jsmeaton 8y ago

This is an in-depth discussion of Django's proposed governance changes from a long-time committer (since 2007), release manager, and board member of the Django Software Foundation. It's also an interesting mini history of the governance of the project and formation of things like the DSF. Essentially they plan to dissolve the Django Core and make the development of Django more open to new contributors.

frankwiles 8y ago

This has been a long time coming and overdue to help “open” things up. Thank you James for taking a leading role to help make it happen! I and other DSF/Django members will likely be around here to answer any questions anyone may have. My biggest hope is that this isn’t seen as scary or concerning to anyone. It should not be scary to any current users or contributors to Django.

charred_toast 8y ago
If it means anything, reading the first part of it inspired me to want to contribute to it, if at all ever possible, because I believe Django is important enough to sustain and to recognize these issues before they evolve into problems is good idea.

jamestimmins 8y ago

Personally, I find this quite timely, because I recently wanted to get involved in open source and looked into working with Django. Their ticket tracking system looks far easier to follow and get involved with than many other large projects, but still I find zero tickets marked 'easy pickings' and 'unassigned'. This may be the wrong response, but my takeaway is that the project is too far along for new contributors, so it's better to try and get involved with smaller, less well known projects where I can contribute. In part, I'm commenting because I would love for this to not be true, and would be quite excited if someone pointed out flaws in my understanding!

pjtr 8y ago
If you like that ticket tracking system (Trac), maybe consider getting involved with that itself as well: https://trac.edgewall.org/query?status=new&keywords=~bitesized&desc=1&order=id https://trac.edgewall.org/query?status=new&keywords=~bitesiz... 'bitesized' tickets are "small work items, ideal for new contributors to dive into the code". https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/HowToContribute https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/HowToContribute
- jamestimmins 8y ago
  Oh this is quite cool, I assumed it was developed in-house. Thanks very much!
- bionoid 8y ago
  Just out of random interest - does anyone know what happened to the Apache Bloodhound project [0], which was based on Trac? I was somewhat optimistic when it started.. let's be real, Trac has many serious shortcomings, but it's still extremely practical for a small team of technical users. No progress was made on GenericTrac [1] whatsoever for the 5+ years I ran Trac in production and followed the project. Bloodhound made a single release, and then I never heard a word about it again. [0] http://bloodhound.apache.org/ http://bloodhound.apache.org/ [1] https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/GenericTrac https://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/GenericTrac
  - pjtr 8y ago
    It seems not that many people have enough time and long-term interest in contributing significant improvements to such projects. GenericTrac was mainly a plan by Christian Boos, who worked a lot on Trac in ~2005 - 2013, but has not actively worked on it much after that. Apache Bloodhound was mainly triggered by one company (WANdisco), which has lost interest in it. Of the few remaining people, Ryan J Ollos has since become a Trac core developer instead, and has been keeping very active there. Recently Gary Martin (formerly(?) WANdisco) "restarted" Apache Bloodhound as a Django app, not based on Trac anymore.[2] > Trac has many serious shortcomings I don't disagree, but would be interested in what you think they are. [2] https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@bloodhound.apache.org:2018-10 https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@bloodhound.apache.org...

lsh 8y ago

It's come a long way and this is yet another interesting feature Django is incorporating. I hope it injects the fresh blood they're after. Did anybody else feel inspired by a 'rapid web development' platform in 2005? https://tech.slashdot.org/story/05/08/02/0051258/django-pythons-rapid-web-development-framework https://tech.slashdot.org/story/05/08/02/0051258/django-pyth...

btown 8y ago

I wonder if the continued use of Trac and a mailing list in a modern, Github-centric world is holding back contributions, perhaps even more so than the need to reshuffle responsibilities among existing contributors. Consider that if a Django user wants to contribute with an account they're already logged into, the only thing they can see is https://github.com/django/django/pulls https://github.com/django/django/pulls - a wall of structure and external references, with no clear way to suggest features. To the community's credit, people gently redirect "stray" pull requests to the proper channels, but this still has to feel like a form of rejection to well-meaning developers! Compare this to https://github.com/facebook/react/issues https://github.com/facebook/react/issues and https://github.com/rails/rails/issues https://github.com/rails/rails/issues - inviting colors, a clear way to raise issues one click away from the codebase itself, centralized discussion of those issues, automatic links between PRs and issues. Nobody is left behind; any suggestion can become a discussion with decision-makers in place. This is what the modern developer has come to expect. I love Django as a framework - it's a set of abstractions that make a ton of sense together, but simultaneously are much more explicit and easier to dive into than Rails. I can command-click my way through the entire stack in VS Code and know exactly what's going on; when there's a customization to make, there's almost always two or three hooks I can use to make it happen. And it pains me that there seems to be a fear of change and a fragmentation of contributor tooling that's holding it back from evolving. I don't know that Trac -> Github is the best path, but I hope that this is the first of numerous innovations that the core and board intend to discuss earnestly over the coming years. EDIT: As I consider what I've written above, I'm thinking about a concept of TTFK - "Time To First Keystroke" that's intended as part of a contribution. Once you start writing an issue or coding a PR, assuming there's a clear path for it to get accepted, that first keypress is the start of an avalanche that gets obsessed developers deeper and deeper engaged. But if you look at the README on https://github.com/django/django https://github.com/django/django , count how many clicks it takes, and words to read, and new platforms to join, until you can type your first character on a non-documentation feature request. It's not a fun number. Process/triage is great, but you have to have a way that someone's unstructured contribution can gain structure over time without requiring them to retype it or jump through hoops.

ubernostrum 8y ago

devxpy 8y ago

Wow, Django must be used by many of the biggest companies around. Instagram comes to mind... Its so retarded to me that companies don't have a model for paying the open source projects they built their whole infrastructure on :(

ubernostrum 8y ago
Not a fan of your word choice there. But it's worth noting Instagram has been a generous corporate sponsor of the DSF, and hired a Django committer several years ago. I just don't know of any company that currently has employees paid to work on Django, in the same way that, say, several big tech companies pay people to work on various parts of the Linux ecosystem.
- nikisweeting 8y ago
  Does Eventbrite pay Andrew Godwin to work on Django? He's certainly a prolific contributor but I'm not sure if his Django work is officially sponsored by them.
- devxpy 8y ago
  I definitely did not mean to target Instagram. We have a general problem of open source funding, and something like Django having this problem is disheartening.
dagenix 8y ago
That's highly problematic word choice that doesnt further the discussion at all.
- vlogan 8y ago
  I'm triggered by the word "problematic". It was used in similar euphemisms when my country was still communist.
Double_a_92 8y ago
puts on Oakleys Don't use the R word!

crucialfelix 8y ago

This is a good move. I found the process of contributing to be very off putting and so I gave up.

jsmeaton 8y ago
Can you elaborate any more? I'd be keen on hearing about what made it so off putting and what could be done better to improve that situation.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

charlixcx 8y ago

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speedplane 8y ago

Django's stance of not supporting NoSQL and other alternative databases is such an embarrassment. Not saying they need to chase every fancy new technology, but for a "batteries included" library, they sadly miss a whole bunch of features.

techie128 8y ago

Big Django fan here. Love the project and framework. I love DRF and other plugins. I am a developer but I haven't ever felt the need to contribute for two reasons - 1) It works 2) The entry barrier is high. For instance, other than some basic documentation, I haven't seen anything more substantial "howto" to contributing including Django developer events. For instance, Carlton Gibson had a DjangoCon 2018 talk about contributing to Django. This was a good start. However, we need more meaningful engagements for example a code walk through for different areas of the Django codebase. Maybe a howto series on hacking on different parts of the codebase. This is more engaging & useful for someone who wants to contribute. It is a step beyond saying "here's a git repo, mailing list and issue tracker. Now, go forth and code!"