7 ms·

Anti-vaccination stronghold hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in decades

21 points by beat 8y ago

herodotus 8y ago
The article is pay-walled. Here is an alternative: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46267038 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46267038
maeln 8y ago
> "We find that our parents are highly motivated to choose exactly what they want for their children. We, as a school, do not discriminate based on a child's medical history or medical condition." Being French, this seems really mindless to me. If schools truly care about the children they are educating, they should require vaccination and explain to the parents why not vaccinating their kids is dangerous for them and the others. School is a place to learn and acquire knowledge, it shouldn't be complacent with anti-scientific belief.
woliveirajr 8y ago
I couldn't find if the outbreak is also affecting people who were previously vaccinated. This would give details on how effective vaccination really was, i.e., if vaccination alone was sufficient to prevent some people from getting infected and how many of the unvaccinated was infected.
- bogle 8y ago
  I don't think that's the point of the article. For efficacy you'd need a properly controlled trial comparing vaccinations, not deliberatly failing to vaccinate and thus endangering children.
berbec 8y ago
It's sad that people look at this and just say "silly anti-vaxxers". The proper response is "How can parents get with endangering the lives of their own and their neighbor's children?"
- lentil_soup 8y ago
  or even further, "what is making these parents make the choice to not vaccinate children?". Is it education? is it distrust of the system?
  - CodeTheInternet 8y ago
    "religious immunisation exemptions" God, apparently.
  - burfog 8y ago
    In this case, parents are educated by experience actually getting chickenpox. Although horrible complications are indeed possible, the risks are really being blown out of proportion. Chickenpox vaccination is more about pharmaceutical companies and missed school days. There is also plenty of distrust. This is to be expected, given the well-known existence of lobbying by for-profit pharmaceutical companies that are legally protected from all liability. Specific complaints are that vaccines are manufactured using tissue cultures from aborted babies, that some of the diseases aren't even present in the USA (can vaccinate if they come back), that disease risks are overstated (given modern care and general health), that vaccine risks are understated (the window of time for a vaccine injury to be legally accepted is too narrow), and that pharmaceutical companies refuse to offer some of the vaccines in single-disease form. For example, one of those combo vaccines (I think the MMR or DTAP) is a problem for somebody I know. A single component of the vaccine is made from tissue culture that originates from an aborted baby. The kids would be vaccinated for the other diseases if it were possible to get separate vaccinations in the USA. Japan has separate vaccinations available, but a trip to Japan is a major undertaking. Some people are resistant to a hard sell. The supposed "education" to push for vaccination is always very one-sided. People can see it. The harder the push, the more suspicion is generated. It's sort of like the car dealer experience.
    - berbec 8y ago
      Good points and well laid out. I don't quite get the DVs. One point I'd make, about the "tissue culture that originates from an aborted baby" vaccine. According to [1], the MMR vaccine: "The viruses are cultured in aborted fetal tissue cells. The cells were obtained more than 50 years ago, as a result of elective abortions" There are no new fetal tissues being "harvested" (I know that's not the proper term, forgive me) to make more vaccines. They are keeping cultures donated fifty years ago growing. I can understand people not liking the hard-sell on vaccines, but what I can't wrap my head around is how much effort should have to go into the argument "give your kids these shots so a horrific number of children don't make it to 15". The CDC has a broad info page, but one point comes across crystal clear to me (even specifically about the MMR vaccine): "An epidemic of rubella (German measles) in 1964-65 infected 12½ million Americans, killed 2,000 babies, and caused 11,000 miscarriages. Since 2012, 15 cases of rubella were reported to CDC." [2] 1: https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-tissue-260337 https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-vaccines-contain-aborted-f... 2: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm
Rjevski 8y ago
Glad to see natural selection working as intended.
- djohnston 8y ago
  eh, it's usually not the anti vaxers, but their children, who suffer. so it's not some cosmic justice, just a sad case of parental neglect
  - joshpearson 8y ago
    In the US, parent's have to go out of their way to get their kids exempt
  - 6t6t6t6 8y ago
    Well, if you offspring don't make it until the age they can reproduce, it's still natural selection...
bogle 8y ago
A little info for any carers of children with chickenpox. The scabs can allow skin bacteria to infect the child. This may present as a swelling around the scab. It can become life threatening as it can quickly progress to septicaemia (sepsis) in a matter of hours. It's rare enough that Accident & Emergency may not recognise it as they'll only have a handful of cases in a year in a middle-sized city. There could be a delay in giving that huge cocktail of antibiotics that are going to be required. The high-dendency unit is a scary place.
- replicatorblog 8y ago
  +1. My daughter was being treated for Leukemia when she developed Sepsis and hovered near death for a week in the ICU of Boston Children's Hospital, generally considered the best pediatric unit in the world. It was touch and go the whole time, even with the best possible care. For the sake of your children, and children with suppressed immune systems, please vaccinate your children.
- burfog 8y ago
  That has essentially nothing to do with chickenpox. Suppose the kid skins his knee. The scabs can allow skin bacteria to infect the child. This may present as a swelling around the scab. It can become life threatening as it can quickly progress to septicaemia (sepsis) in a matter of hours. Yep. Same with mosquito bites, paper cuts, and slivers. You could DIE!!!!! Well, you could. You really could.
  - bogle 8y ago
    Think about: (a) the number of wounds, (b) the age of the child and (c) that they are already ill. Also consider the very serious consequences (death). That increase in the hazard and the potential for serious illness is what makes this a real risk. In the UK we don't find it economic to vaccinate the whole population for chickenpox but if it's an option to pay for it then it would be sensible.
dannytip 8y ago
Theres a chickenpox vaccine? It's not part of the childhood vaccination program here in the UK.
- jki275 8y ago
  It has been for maybe around fifteen years in the US. It's a relatively new thing that it's in common use.
- bm98 8y ago
  Interesting - it's part of the routine childhood schedule in the US but not in the UK. From NHS: "Why isn't the chickenpox vaccination part of the routine childhood immunisation schedule?" https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccine-questions-answers/#why-isnt-the-chickenpox-vaccination-part-of-the-routine-childhood-immunisation-schedule https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccin...
  - LitFan 8y ago
    Paraphrased: Herd immunity created by most people getting the chicken pox vaccine would make it less likely for people who did not get the vaccine to get chicken pox early in life, leaving them susceptible to contracting it later in life. It sounds like those people should also get vaccinated, rather than not requiring anyone to be vaccinated.
- luigibosco 8y ago
  I wonder if part of the reason why chickenpox vaccine is not part of the childhood vaccination program in the UK is because in the US we have for profit pharmaceutical companies who are not liable for ANY injury they cause who are paying a lot of money to lobbyists. https://ethics.harvard.edu/news/institutional-corruption-and-pharmaceutical-policy https://ethics.harvard.edu/news/institutional-corruption-and...
jriot 8y ago
Love seeing all the hate here. Pretty sure all of us grew-up in the era where we contracted chicken-pox. We took an oatmeal bath, spent a few days at home, and all was well again.
- majewsky 8y ago
  Except for those children that died of it, which you probably didn't see. The plural of anecdote is not data.
  - theOneTrueOld 8y ago
    "The plural of anecdote is not data" Wonderful, Is that yours?
- jonheller 8y ago
  My sister was sick enough from chicken pox that her doctor told her to take aspirin. She died about a week later from Reye's Syndrome. So no, we were all not well again.
  - burfog 8y ago
    Blame that death on the doctor being unaware of problems with aspirin. (many decades ago?) Chickenpox barely had anything to do with the death; many ordinary illnesses would give the same result.
    - bogle 8y ago
      A quick check of what Reye's Syndrome was would have told you that it is both associated with chickenpox and the first paper to make the link to aspirin was in 1989 (add time for that information to be fully understood and disseminated).
      - burfog 8y ago
        It's also associated with the flu and, generally, with upper respiratory tract infections.
r00fus 8y ago
There's no way we can reach these idiotic parents or help their unfortunate kids. For those of us with sense, how can we find out if we happen to be in one of those "strongholds" and make sure our school district doesn't go that way? Are exemption% publicly listed? I may not be able to stop someone endangering their kids and others nearby, but if I can stop it happening near me (or move away in worst case), I want to know.
danw1979 8y ago
meanwhile in the UK we have actual chickenpox parties to try and spread the infection to as many children as possible while they are still young enough that it doesn’t cause the complications it does when you reach adulthood... https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/why-are-children-in-the-uk-not-vaccinated-against-chickenpox/ https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/...
- orev 8y ago
  It was the same in the US until the vaccine came out. Seems these parents aren’t only dumb enough the be anti-vaxxers, they’re also dumb enough to not even do the things everyone did before the vaccine existed.

21 points by beat 8y ago

The article is pay-walled. Here is an alternative: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46267038 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46267038

maeln 8y ago

> "We find that our parents are highly motivated to choose exactly what they want for their children. We, as a school, do not discriminate based on a child's medical history or medical condition." Being French, this seems really mindless to me. If schools truly care about the children they are educating, they should require vaccination and explain to the parents why not vaccinating their kids is dangerous for them and the others. School is a place to learn and acquire knowledge, it shouldn't be complacent with anti-scientific belief.

woliveirajr 8y ago

I couldn't find if the outbreak is also affecting people who were previously vaccinated. This would give details on how effective vaccination really was, i.e., if vaccination alone was sufficient to prevent some people from getting infected and how many of the unvaccinated was infected.

bogle 8y ago
I don't think that's the point of the article. For efficacy you'd need a properly controlled trial comparing vaccinations, not deliberatly failing to vaccinate and thus endangering children.

berbec 8y ago

It's sad that people look at this and just say "silly anti-vaxxers". The proper response is "How can parents get with endangering the lives of their own and their neighbor's children?"

lentil_soup 8y ago
or even further, "what is making these parents make the choice to not vaccinate children?". Is it education? is it distrust of the system?
- CodeTheInternet 8y ago
  "religious immunisation exemptions" God, apparently.
- burfog 8y ago
  In this case, parents are educated by experience actually getting chickenpox. Although horrible complications are indeed possible, the risks are really being blown out of proportion. Chickenpox vaccination is more about pharmaceutical companies and missed school days. There is also plenty of distrust. This is to be expected, given the well-known existence of lobbying by for-profit pharmaceutical companies that are legally protected from all liability. Specific complaints are that vaccines are manufactured using tissue cultures from aborted babies, that some of the diseases aren't even present in the USA (can vaccinate if they come back), that disease risks are overstated (given modern care and general health), that vaccine risks are understated (the window of time for a vaccine injury to be legally accepted is too narrow), and that pharmaceutical companies refuse to offer some of the vaccines in single-disease form. For example, one of those combo vaccines (I think the MMR or DTAP) is a problem for somebody I know. A single component of the vaccine is made from tissue culture that originates from an aborted baby. The kids would be vaccinated for the other diseases if it were possible to get separate vaccinations in the USA. Japan has separate vaccinations available, but a trip to Japan is a major undertaking. Some people are resistant to a hard sell. The supposed "education" to push for vaccination is always very one-sided. People can see it. The harder the push, the more suspicion is generated. It's sort of like the car dealer experience.
  - berbec 8y ago
    Good points and well laid out. I don't quite get the DVs. One point I'd make, about the "tissue culture that originates from an aborted baby" vaccine. According to [1], the MMR vaccine: "The viruses are cultured in aborted fetal tissue cells. The cells were obtained more than 50 years ago, as a result of elective abortions" There are no new fetal tissues being "harvested" (I know that's not the proper term, forgive me) to make more vaccines. They are keeping cultures donated fifty years ago growing. I can understand people not liking the hard-sell on vaccines, but what I can't wrap my head around is how much effort should have to go into the argument "give your kids these shots so a horrific number of children don't make it to 15". The CDC has a broad info page, but one point comes across crystal clear to me (even specifically about the MMR vaccine): "An epidemic of rubella (German measles) in 1964-65 infected 12½ million Americans, killed 2,000 babies, and caused 11,000 miscarriages. Since 2012, 15 cases of rubella were reported to CDC." [2] 1: https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-tissue-260337 https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-vaccines-contain-aborted-f... 2: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

Rjevski 8y ago

Glad to see natural selection working as intended.

djohnston 8y ago
eh, it's usually not the anti vaxers, but their children, who suffer. so it's not some cosmic justice, just a sad case of parental neglect
- joshpearson 8y ago
  In the US, parent's have to go out of their way to get their kids exempt
- 6t6t6t6 8y ago
  Well, if you offspring don't make it until the age they can reproduce, it's still natural selection...

bogle 8y ago

A little info for any carers of children with chickenpox. The scabs can allow skin bacteria to infect the child. This may present as a swelling around the scab. It can become life threatening as it can quickly progress to septicaemia (sepsis) in a matter of hours. It's rare enough that Accident & Emergency may not recognise it as they'll only have a handful of cases in a year in a middle-sized city. There could be a delay in giving that huge cocktail of antibiotics that are going to be required. The high-dendency unit is a scary place.

replicatorblog 8y ago
+1. My daughter was being treated for Leukemia when she developed Sepsis and hovered near death for a week in the ICU of Boston Children's Hospital, generally considered the best pediatric unit in the world. It was touch and go the whole time, even with the best possible care. For the sake of your children, and children with suppressed immune systems, please vaccinate your children.
burfog 8y ago
That has essentially nothing to do with chickenpox. Suppose the kid skins his knee. The scabs can allow skin bacteria to infect the child. This may present as a swelling around the scab. It can become life threatening as it can quickly progress to septicaemia (sepsis) in a matter of hours. Yep. Same with mosquito bites, paper cuts, and slivers. You could DIE!!!!! Well, you could. You really could.
- bogle 8y ago
  Think about: (a) the number of wounds, (b) the age of the child and (c) that they are already ill. Also consider the very serious consequences (death). That increase in the hazard and the potential for serious illness is what makes this a real risk. In the UK we don't find it economic to vaccinate the whole population for chickenpox but if it's an option to pay for it then it would be sensible.

dannytip 8y ago

Theres a chickenpox vaccine? It's not part of the childhood vaccination program here in the UK.

jki275 8y ago
It has been for maybe around fifteen years in the US. It's a relatively new thing that it's in common use.
bm98 8y ago
Interesting - it's part of the routine childhood schedule in the US but not in the UK. From NHS: "Why isn't the chickenpox vaccination part of the routine childhood immunisation schedule?" https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccine-questions-answers/#why-isnt-the-chickenpox-vaccination-part-of-the-routine-childhood-immunisation-schedule https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccin...
- LitFan 8y ago
  Paraphrased: Herd immunity created by most people getting the chicken pox vaccine would make it less likely for people who did not get the vaccine to get chicken pox early in life, leaving them susceptible to contracting it later in life. It sounds like those people should also get vaccinated, rather than not requiring anyone to be vaccinated.
luigibosco 8y ago
I wonder if part of the reason why chickenpox vaccine is not part of the childhood vaccination program in the UK is because in the US we have for profit pharmaceutical companies who are not liable for ANY injury they cause who are paying a lot of money to lobbyists. https://ethics.harvard.edu/news/institutional-corruption-and-pharmaceutical-policy https://ethics.harvard.edu/news/institutional-corruption-and...

jriot 8y ago

Love seeing all the hate here. Pretty sure all of us grew-up in the era where we contracted chicken-pox. We took an oatmeal bath, spent a few days at home, and all was well again.

majewsky 8y ago
Except for those children that died of it, which you probably didn't see. The plural of anecdote is not data.
- theOneTrueOld 8y ago
  "The plural of anecdote is not data" Wonderful, Is that yours?
jonheller 8y ago
My sister was sick enough from chicken pox that her doctor told her to take aspirin. She died about a week later from Reye's Syndrome. So no, we were all not well again.
- burfog 8y ago
  Blame that death on the doctor being unaware of problems with aspirin. (many decades ago?) Chickenpox barely had anything to do with the death; many ordinary illnesses would give the same result.
  - bogle 8y ago
    A quick check of what Reye's Syndrome was would have told you that it is both associated with chickenpox and the first paper to make the link to aspirin was in 1989 (add time for that information to be fully understood and disseminated).
    - burfog 8y ago
      It's also associated with the flu and, generally, with upper respiratory tract infections.

r00fus 8y ago

There's no way we can reach these idiotic parents or help their unfortunate kids. For those of us with sense, how can we find out if we happen to be in one of those "strongholds" and make sure our school district doesn't go that way? Are exemption% publicly listed? I may not be able to stop someone endangering their kids and others nearby, but if I can stop it happening near me (or move away in worst case), I want to know.

danw1979 8y ago

meanwhile in the UK we have actual chickenpox parties to try and spread the infection to as many children as possible while they are still young enough that it doesn’t cause the complications it does when you reach adulthood... https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/why-are-children-in-the-uk-not-vaccinated-against-chickenpox/ https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/...

orev 8y ago
It was the same in the US until the vaccine came out. Seems these parents aren’t only dumb enough the be anti-vaxxers, they’re also dumb enough to not even do the things everyone did before the vaccine existed.