4 ms·

Notes from the last time I tried to understand this - https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wpZJvgQ4HvJE2bysy/god-help-us-let-s-try-to-understand-friston-on-free-ener

by jamii 8y ago

Notes from the last time I tried to understand this - https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wpZJvgQ4HvJE2bysy/god-help-us-let-s-try-to-understand-friston-on-free-energy#Wh3HMLbd7Xyhh2LNw https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wpZJvgQ4HvJE2bysy/god-help-u...

sydd 8y ago
Thanks, it was a great read! From what I get this whole thing is more like an abstract ruleset describing how decision making in the brain works, rather than a brain model. Or am I wrong, is there anyone who built a network model based on this theory?
- atschantz 8y ago
  In terms of the free energy 'principle', it makes no predictions about how free energy minimized. But there have been multiple process theories suggested, most notably predictive coding (which is a dominant paradigm in neuroscience) [1] and variational message passing [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding [2] http://www.jmlr.org/papers/volume6/winn05a/winn05a.pdf http://www.jmlr.org/papers/volume6/winn05a/winn05a.pdf
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    Isn't variational message-passing the algorithmic-level theory about where predictive coding comes from?
    - atschantz 8y ago
      I think you might be right, a quote from Friston on the relationship (in reference to belief propagation): "We turn to the equivalent message passing for continuous variables, which transpires to be predictive coding [...]" It could be that belief propagation is in the context of discrete variables, whereas predictive coding is in the context of continuous, both of which are a form of (variational) message passing.
conjectures 8y ago
Thanks - I found this very useful. > From the Alius interview: "The free energy principle stands in stark distinction to things like predictive coding and the Bayesian brain hypothesis. This is because the free energy principle is what it is — a principle. Like Hamilton’s Principle of Stationary Action, it cannot be falsified. It cannot be disproven. In fact, there’s not much you can do with it, unless you ask whether measurable systems conform to the principle." This is a big kahuna burger of a bullet to bite!
prossercj 8y ago
That was great, thanks. This all reminds me of Socrates' claim in the Theatetus that "Philosophy begins in wonder," wonder being roughly equivalent to the the desire to reduce uncertainty, and the Platonic idea that philosophy is central to the good life. Which leads to the ubiquitous Whitehead quote about western philosophy consisting of footnotes to Plato...
eli_gottlieb 8y ago
I endorse the responses labeled with my name.

by jamii 8y ago

sydd 8y ago

Thanks, it was a great read! From what I get this whole thing is more like an abstract ruleset describing how decision making in the brain works, rather than a brain model. Or am I wrong, is there anyone who built a network model based on this theory?

atschantz 8y ago
In terms of the free energy 'principle', it makes no predictions about how free energy minimized. But there have been multiple process theories suggested, most notably predictive coding (which is a dominant paradigm in neuroscience) [1] and variational message passing [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding [2] http://www.jmlr.org/papers/volume6/winn05a/winn05a.pdf http://www.jmlr.org/papers/volume6/winn05a/winn05a.pdf
- eli_gottlieb 8y ago
  Isn't variational message-passing the algorithmic-level theory about where predictive coding comes from?
  - atschantz 8y ago
    I think you might be right, a quote from Friston on the relationship (in reference to belief propagation): "We turn to the equivalent message passing for continuous variables, which transpires to be predictive coding [...]" It could be that belief propagation is in the context of discrete variables, whereas predictive coding is in the context of continuous, both of which are a form of (variational) message passing.

conjectures 8y ago

Thanks - I found this very useful. > From the Alius interview: "The free energy principle stands in stark distinction to things like predictive coding and the Bayesian brain hypothesis. This is because the free energy principle is what it is — a principle. Like Hamilton’s Principle of Stationary Action, it cannot be falsified. It cannot be disproven. In fact, there’s not much you can do with it, unless you ask whether measurable systems conform to the principle." This is a big kahuna burger of a bullet to bite!

prossercj 8y ago

That was great, thanks. This all reminds me of Socrates' claim in the Theatetus that "Philosophy begins in wonder," wonder being roughly equivalent to the the desire to reduce uncertainty, and the Platonic idea that philosophy is central to the good life. Which leads to the ubiquitous Whitehead quote about western philosophy consisting of footnotes to Plato...

eli_gottlieb 8y ago

I endorse the responses labeled with my name.