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In 2001, Portugal decriminalized drugs. Data since then seems to indicate that the policy was successful. rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seve

by kqr2 16y ago

In 2001, Portugal decriminalized drugs. Data since then seems to indicate that the policy was successful. rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.ht... http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/03/14/portugal/index.html http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/03/14...

slowpoison 16y ago
Anybody comment on what the situation is in Amsterdam, where pot is legal, at least, in small quantities?
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- ugh 16y ago
  … as I understand it there are two main problems with the status quo. One is that under the old tolerance regime there’s still no way for a coffee shop to legally obtain the supply of marijuana you need to operate on the scale of a business. Consequently, de facto legalization hasn’t actually eliminated the black market and associated criminality. Secondarily, the main market for the coffee shops turns out to be drug tourists from abroad. That reduces the Dutch political constituency for keeping them open. And the two factors interact together to create a situation where there’s a strong case to be made that legal coffee shops (by bringing drug tourists from the UK and the US into shops that need to tap an illegal wholesale market to gain their supplies) increase the scale of organized crime in the Netherlands. – http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/coffee-shop-crackdown/ http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/coffee-shop-crackd...
  - mambodog 16y ago
    So really, legalisation would work a lot better if all countries did it (eliminating drug tourism).
    - anthonyb 16y ago
      No, you just need to avoid doing it in a half-hearted manner. In the case of Holland, why shouldn't there be drug tourism? Why is it any worse than, say, coffee tourism? or wine and food tourism?
      - mturmon 16y ago
        Because the people drawn to drug tourism are more irresponsible, shallow, and opportunistic than your average tourist. Not always, sometimes not outrageously so, but in general. If you've been to Amsterdam, you might have noticed this, as I did.
        anthonyb 16y ago
        So? Lots of people are irresponsible, shallow and opportunistic. I've seen Americans complaining loudly about prices and the lack of English while touring Italy, but nobody seems to want to ban the Duomo.
        kablamo 16y ago
        I was surprised Amsterdam seemed to maintain a clean, moderate, respectable attitude during daylight hours. I noticed the city is an insanely wealthy and beautiful place. I would guess they are making a ton of money off tourists.
  - Confusion 16y ago
    the main market for the coffee shops turns out to be drug tourists from abroad That's not true. Although a number of coffee shops in Amsterdam and in cities close to the borders with Germany and Belgium primarily sell to tourists, there are many more coffeeshops that just sell to the local users.
- frossie 16y ago
  Anybody comment on what the situation is in Amsterdam Just a note of caution - while looking at what other places do definitely brings information to the table, you can't always say "if place A does X, doing X in place B will make it like place A". The classic example of this is alcohol. Alcoholic beverages are not prohibited, but if you walk through an Italian town center at 11pm on a Friday night you won't see the scenes of public drunkeness and alcohol-fueled disorder that you see, say, in an English town center at the same time. While I don't necessarily disagree with the larger point, in these kinds of policy area there is a level of unpredictability as to what will happen when a previously controlled substance is legalised, because patterns of consumption are convolved with local social norms.
- Hovertruck 16y ago
  AFAIK, pot isn't actually legal, it's just decriminalized, and not very strictly enforced.
VladRussian 16y ago
>and money saved on enforcement For the police union it is "lost" money, not "saved".
- zachrose 16y ago
  "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -- Clay Shirky (aka The Wire Principal) Although not always, it seems. Wikipedia lists a fair about of support from police unions. (And longshoremen, FWIW.)
- pmjordan 16y ago
  Considering most police forces in Europe complain about too much work and lack of resources, I doubt that. No idea what the situation is like in the US.
jozo 16y ago
The situation in the US now and in Portugal then is very different. Everything from the culture and structure of society, to the motivations behind the reform and the actual reform itself are different. The decision by the socialist government in Portugal was based on pragmatism, born out necessity, rather then ideology. The idea was that, instead of further victimizing the addicts, they would be able to get help. As the law no longer would stand between those in need and the resources of the government. That's why it still isn't legal to sell drugs in Portugal and why you as an addict can be called to mandatory counseling. I'm not saying on reform or the other is better, but they are still very different.
shin_lao 16y ago
Decriminalization is not legalization.

by kqr2 16y ago

slowpoison 16y ago

Anybody comment on what the situation is in Amsterdam, where pot is legal, at least, in small quantities?

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
ugh 16y ago
… as I understand it there are two main problems with the status quo. One is that under the old tolerance regime there’s still no way for a coffee shop to legally obtain the supply of marijuana you need to operate on the scale of a business. Consequently, de facto legalization hasn’t actually eliminated the black market and associated criminality. Secondarily, the main market for the coffee shops turns out to be drug tourists from abroad. That reduces the Dutch political constituency for keeping them open. And the two factors interact together to create a situation where there’s a strong case to be made that legal coffee shops (by bringing drug tourists from the UK and the US into shops that need to tap an illegal wholesale market to gain their supplies) increase the scale of organized crime in the Netherlands. – http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/coffee-shop-crackdown/ http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/coffee-shop-crackd...
- mambodog 16y ago
  So really, legalisation would work a lot better if all countries did it (eliminating drug tourism).
  - anthonyb 16y ago
    No, you just need to avoid doing it in a half-hearted manner. In the case of Holland, why shouldn't there be drug tourism? Why is it any worse than, say, coffee tourism? or wine and food tourism?
    - mturmon 16y ago
      Because the people drawn to drug tourism are more irresponsible, shallow, and opportunistic than your average tourist. Not always, sometimes not outrageously so, but in general. If you've been to Amsterdam, you might have noticed this, as I did.
      - anthonyb 16y ago
        So? Lots of people are irresponsible, shallow and opportunistic. I've seen Americans complaining loudly about prices and the lack of English while touring Italy, but nobody seems to want to ban the Duomo.
      - kablamo 16y ago
        I was surprised Amsterdam seemed to maintain a clean, moderate, respectable attitude during daylight hours. I noticed the city is an insanely wealthy and beautiful place. I would guess they are making a ton of money off tourists.
- Confusion 16y ago
  the main market for the coffee shops turns out to be drug tourists from abroad That's not true. Although a number of coffee shops in Amsterdam and in cities close to the borders with Germany and Belgium primarily sell to tourists, there are many more coffeeshops that just sell to the local users.
frossie 16y ago
Anybody comment on what the situation is in Amsterdam Just a note of caution - while looking at what other places do definitely brings information to the table, you can't always say "if place A does X, doing X in place B will make it like place A". The classic example of this is alcohol. Alcoholic beverages are not prohibited, but if you walk through an Italian town center at 11pm on a Friday night you won't see the scenes of public drunkeness and alcohol-fueled disorder that you see, say, in an English town center at the same time. While I don't necessarily disagree with the larger point, in these kinds of policy area there is a level of unpredictability as to what will happen when a previously controlled substance is legalised, because patterns of consumption are convolved with local social norms.
Hovertruck 16y ago
AFAIK, pot isn't actually legal, it's just decriminalized, and not very strictly enforced.

VladRussian 16y ago

>and money saved on enforcement For the police union it is "lost" money, not "saved".

zachrose 16y ago
"Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -- Clay Shirky (aka The Wire Principal) Although not always, it seems. Wikipedia lists a fair about of support from police unions. (And longshoremen, FWIW.)
pmjordan 16y ago
Considering most police forces in Europe complain about too much work and lack of resources, I doubt that. No idea what the situation is like in the US.

jozo 16y ago

The situation in the US now and in Portugal then is very different. Everything from the culture and structure of society, to the motivations behind the reform and the actual reform itself are different. The decision by the socialist government in Portugal was based on pragmatism, born out necessity, rather then ideology. The idea was that, instead of further victimizing the addicts, they would be able to get help. As the law no longer would stand between those in need and the resources of the government. That's why it still isn't legal to sell drugs in Portugal and why you as an addict can be called to mandatory counseling. I'm not saying on reform or the other is better, but they are still very different.

shin_lao 16y ago

Decriminalization is not legalization.