5 ms·

Revisiting the West's view of China internet censorship

18 points by moflome 8y ago

moflome 8y ago
Non paywall version here [0], I have to think some Western governments are looking again at China's internet policies for inspiration. Tim Cook, for one, seems [1] to be encouraging it. [0]: https://outline.com/8LNkuq https://outline.com/8LNkuq [1]: https://www.siliconrepublic.com/companies/apple-tim-cook-tech-regulation https://www.siliconrepublic.com/companies/apple-tim-cook-tec...
- wmf 8y ago
  China's internet policies are an inspiration for GDPR-style privacy regulation? I don't understand.
  - StudentStuff 8y ago
    No, many neoliberals & center right supporting people like Tim Cook have taken to this idea that we should censor certain views after the defeat of Hillary. Its a weak argument responding to the expression of the dropping standard of living for the poorest among us here in America, and it was a massive blindspot that Hillary's data science team didn't pick up on: https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/9sy7g1/di_work_under_a_famous_researcher_in_a_big/e8slexw https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/9sy7g1/di_... Edit: People of Tim Cook's beliefs, eg: the Gay Log Cabin Republicans mostly died out during the AIDS crisis. A very similar strain of political ideology was heralded by Hillary in this past electoral cycle. Basically a "Fuck you, got mine. Don't you have magical bootstraps? Oh, here is a tiny, useless smidgen of help".
devy 8y ago
Eric Shcmidt made some bold forecast echoing some of this sentiment in a September private VC event.[1] [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/20/eric-schmidt-ex-google-ceo-predicts-internet-split-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/20/eric-schmidt-ex-google-ceo-p...
- StudentStuff 8y ago
  There are two distinct internets already, getting bandwidth to move data in and out of China is an expensive proposition, combined with the Great Firewall makes it such that domestic companies have significant advantages compared to overseas competitors. Those domestic companies seem to be starting to innovate on their own, though there is quite a bit of back and forth between US researchers and their counterparts in China. Whether or not this will translate to commercial success outside the protective walled garden is questionable, thus far we haven't seen Baidu or others break into major markets outside China and keep its apps, websites, etc popular for more than brief blips.
  - shanghaiaway 8y ago
    There's far more than two internets. Russian, Japanese, Chinese, South Korean, German, French, Italian, Brazilian. And on and on.
    - StudentStuff 8y ago
      Don't forget the Iranian & Saudi Arabian internets, they all block different things and have restrictions you wouldn't see elsewhere. For the point of my original comment though, none of these restricted networks are breeding challengers to the established tech giants like the Chinese Internet is. Kinda surprised there isn't an Indian Baidu/Google, or Tencent/Steam.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    >Whether or not this will translate to commercial success outside the protective walled garden is questionable... Is that something the party cares about? (The Communist Party I mean). Serious question. How interested are they in having Americans or Bolivians or whatever engage in the daily use of Chinese internet sites and apps? My sense is that they don't really care about that. It seems that it's more a priority that we, on our part, assume the party has. I honestly wonder if they care?
    - woolvalley 8y ago
joefranklinsrs 8y ago
NYTimes is going overdrive cranking out favorable coverage on China the past couple of days. Perhaps NYTimes editors got some reminder from Wall Street that China again needs to be sold to the American public. Since Wall Street dismantled the American workers 30 years ago with NAFTA and China/WTO, it probably felt like it can do it again with the incoming $250B tariff on Chinese imports. Problem is, US is winning, big - China Is Paying for Most of Trump's Trade War, Research Says. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/china-is-paying-for-most-of-trump-s-trade-war-research-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/china-is-...
pochamago 8y ago
I think they make a good point about how the laxness of China's intellectual property laws is a boon to consumers, and maybe innovation.
- vokep 8y ago
  Why make anything if someone is going to just steal it?
  - code_duck 8y ago
    Because them stealing it doesn’t entirely deprive you of it since it’s IP
    - bassman9000 8y ago
      If you're yet looking for a place to manufacture it, when they have already stolen the IP, and are beginning to produce it, you've lost already. It doesn't matter you have the IP if China doesn't respect it.
      - code_duck 8y ago
        The idea is like open source software: you create something because you need it, and you benefit from it existing. What other people do with it may or may not be important.
        bassman9000 8y ago
        That's fine, but what happens to your R&D costs? Is everybody using the product contributing? Example: a HW company spends millions, if not hundreds of millions, on developing a new chip/board, expecting the investment to be returned on sales. China steals the IP, and starts manufacturing and selling before them. Company loses all investment on R&D. Example: pharma company spends hundreds of millions developing a new drug, including decade-long, gruesome FDA approval, expecting to return the investment on sales, including China. Someone steals the documents on manufacturing it. China starts producing the generic before the company even obtains permission. China patents the generic there, so chances for sales in a 1.2 billion economy are zero. India probably follows. Why bother then?

18 points by moflome 8y ago

Non paywall version here [0], I have to think some Western governments are looking again at China's internet policies for inspiration. Tim Cook, for one, seems [1] to be encouraging it. [0]: https://outline.com/8LNkuq https://outline.com/8LNkuq [1]: https://www.siliconrepublic.com/companies/apple-tim-cook-tech-regulation https://www.siliconrepublic.com/companies/apple-tim-cook-tec...

wmf 8y ago
China's internet policies are an inspiration for GDPR-style privacy regulation? I don't understand.
- StudentStuff 8y ago
  No, many neoliberals & center right supporting people like Tim Cook have taken to this idea that we should censor certain views after the defeat of Hillary. Its a weak argument responding to the expression of the dropping standard of living for the poorest among us here in America, and it was a massive blindspot that Hillary's data science team didn't pick up on: https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/9sy7g1/di_work_under_a_famous_researcher_in_a_big/e8slexw https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/9sy7g1/di_... Edit: People of Tim Cook's beliefs, eg: the Gay Log Cabin Republicans mostly died out during the AIDS crisis. A very similar strain of political ideology was heralded by Hillary in this past electoral cycle. Basically a "Fuck you, got mine. Don't you have magical bootstraps? Oh, here is a tiny, useless smidgen of help".

devy 8y ago

Eric Shcmidt made some bold forecast echoing some of this sentiment in a September private VC event.[1] [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/20/eric-schmidt-ex-google-ceo-predicts-internet-split-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/20/eric-schmidt-ex-google-ceo-p...

StudentStuff 8y ago
There are two distinct internets already, getting bandwidth to move data in and out of China is an expensive proposition, combined with the Great Firewall makes it such that domestic companies have significant advantages compared to overseas competitors. Those domestic companies seem to be starting to innovate on their own, though there is quite a bit of back and forth between US researchers and their counterparts in China. Whether or not this will translate to commercial success outside the protective walled garden is questionable, thus far we haven't seen Baidu or others break into major markets outside China and keep its apps, websites, etc popular for more than brief blips.
- shanghaiaway 8y ago
  There's far more than two internets. Russian, Japanese, Chinese, South Korean, German, French, Italian, Brazilian. And on and on.
  - StudentStuff 8y ago
    Don't forget the Iranian & Saudi Arabian internets, they all block different things and have restrictions you wouldn't see elsewhere. For the point of my original comment though, none of these restricted networks are breeding challengers to the established tech giants like the Chinese Internet is. Kinda surprised there isn't an Indian Baidu/Google, or Tencent/Steam.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  >Whether or not this will translate to commercial success outside the protective walled garden is questionable... Is that something the party cares about? (The Communist Party I mean). Serious question. How interested are they in having Americans or Bolivians or whatever engage in the daily use of Chinese internet sites and apps? My sense is that they don't really care about that. It seems that it's more a priority that we, on our part, assume the party has. I honestly wonder if they care?
  - woolvalley 8y ago

joefranklinsrs 8y ago

NYTimes is going overdrive cranking out favorable coverage on China the past couple of days. Perhaps NYTimes editors got some reminder from Wall Street that China again needs to be sold to the American public. Since Wall Street dismantled the American workers 30 years ago with NAFTA and China/WTO, it probably felt like it can do it again with the incoming $250B tariff on Chinese imports. Problem is, US is winning, big - China Is Paying for Most of Trump's Trade War, Research Says. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/china-is-paying-for-most-of-trump-s-trade-war-research-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/china-is-...

pochamago 8y ago

I think they make a good point about how the laxness of China's intellectual property laws is a boon to consumers, and maybe innovation.

vokep 8y ago
Why make anything if someone is going to just steal it?
- code_duck 8y ago
  Because them stealing it doesn’t entirely deprive you of it since it’s IP
  - bassman9000 8y ago
    If you're yet looking for a place to manufacture it, when they have already stolen the IP, and are beginning to produce it, you've lost already. It doesn't matter you have the IP if China doesn't respect it.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      The idea is like open source software: you create something because you need it, and you benefit from it existing. What other people do with it may or may not be important.
      - bassman9000 8y ago
        That's fine, but what happens to your R&D costs? Is everybody using the product contributing? Example: a HW company spends millions, if not hundreds of millions, on developing a new chip/board, expecting the investment to be returned on sales. China steals the IP, and starts manufacturing and selling before them. Company loses all investment on R&D. Example: pharma company spends hundreds of millions developing a new drug, including decade-long, gruesome FDA approval, expecting to return the investment on sales, including China. Someone steals the documents on manufacturing it. China starts producing the generic before the company even obtains permission. China patents the generic there, so chances for sales in a 1.2 billion economy are zero. India probably follows. Why bother then?