5 ms·

It's fundamentally _odd_ to me that people are looking at rental costs. The working class worry about making rent. A senior professional (in any field) cares

It's fundamentally _odd_ to me that people are looking at rental costs. The working class worry about making rent. A senior professional (in any field) cares about building a secure life, buying property, raising a family, saving for retirement. For a whole bunch of people it's the entire reason they put all of that effort into their craft in the first place (otherwise they'd move out into the country and work on OSS all day). You're going to struggle to hire competent, rested, mature, well rounded individuals if you expect them to rent tiny flats downtown and have that be their life. I don't have a visa anyway, but that's part of the reason I haven't bothered looking in to moving to SF. It seems to be built around the idea that you spend your youth grinding in a rented flat, with rental furniture, using rental cars, buying every meal outside, so that in your 40's you might be able to move out and live a decent life with some modicum of security. Baffling. Like, what are you going to do socially? You think you'll just "be rich" somewhere else and live in your house with all the other SF migrants?

tsunamifury 8y ago
I think you misunderstand that several workers out here rent because they can amass capital with their jobs in a more liquid format than buying a house. A house is a middle class investment opportunity, several people out here are making enough to focus more on flexibility and liquidity.
- deleted 8y ago
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- esotericn 8y ago
  I've had prolonged discussions about this elsewhere on HN, but I think if you're considering a house (or an apartment) to be an "investment opportunity", you've missed the point entirely. It's a home first and foremost, and a monetary asset second. If your model is 'grind your 20s-40s away living in a box and then move out' then I implore you to read my comment again.
  - tsunamifury 8y ago
    I have a 1400 sqft apartment in Pacific Heights. It's hardly as bad as everyone wants to make it out to be. It's actually, by far, the nicest place I've ever lived. I think you really misunderstand the high quality of life can be in SF because of all the blogspam. Its hard at times, but it has significant rewards.
    - esotericn 8y ago
      Quite possibly. I often wonder if London looks worse externally than it actually is (you can afford a house or apartment here if you have a professional job, it's just probably going to involve commuting and not be in a prestigious area). Of course, if you're something actually socially useful like a teacher or fireman, you're buggerino'd. I use the term 'house' out of laziness. It's more a commentary on the fact that a 30 year old renting is just incompatible with a decent life in the UK (outside of some secure older council tenancies) whether you live on the ground floor or the fifth floor. You'll probably have to move every year or two - it's not yours to decorate - the furniture might not be yours - it's not a home, it's a longer-term hotel. That might be different elsewhere.
      - tsunamifury 8y ago
        I mean, if I wasn't here, I'd be in Belgravia or Mayfair. London is an amazing place and now about 10% cheaper than SF. It has 2 out of the 5 FAANG companies, but the tech scene is still not in the top 5 IMO compared to NYC, SF, SEA, Singapore and Tokyo. I'd love for that to change...
  - timerol 8y ago
    If a house is a home, I'd rather be homeless. I personally view a house as more of a shackle than a benefit. I enjoy moving every 2-5 years. I value novelty over routine. My first 12 years of life were in the same home, but other than that I've been moving around regularly. I am in my late 20s currently, and I'm open to a change in perspective. Maybe there's value in consistency that I will appreciate more at some point. But being told that I won't count as a senior professional until I care about buying property irks me.
eli_gottlieb 8y ago
>A senior professional (in any field) cares about building a secure life, buying property, raising a family, saving for retirement. You're not going to afford to buy real-estate in San Francisco on a salary. Full stop. You don't buy multi-million-dollar houses when the company might go pear-shaped and leave you without a paycheck, even if your paycheck is in the six figures.
- esotericn 8y ago
  Exactly.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  There are many homes for sale in SF for about a million dollars when I look. Isn’t that completely reasonable on a tech salary of a quarter of a million or so?
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    >Isn’t that completely reasonable on a tech salary of a quarter of a million or so? Isn't that double what was discussed in the article?
  - geggam 8y ago
    Not when people are coming in 10-15% over ask full cash. You cannot compete with that using a mortgage.
AchieveLife 8y ago
Interesting perspective. From your profile it seems you live in London and maybe born there. The social life in the states (especially cities) is vastly different than European cultures. It would be helpful to us who are accustomed to American social life to learn about what you perceive your social life tied into your work life to be like.
- esotericn 8y ago
  I was born in a medium sized town in the North of England. There are a whole bunch of people in London doing the flat-share-can't-afford-anything-rent-it-all lifestyle too.
yonran 8y ago
> It's fundamentally _odd_ to me that people are looking at rental costs. I think it was good that he focused on rent instead of for-sale price. The sale price includes other factors (property taxes, interest rates, expectation of rent increases) that do not affect the cost of living, and many authors get confused when they complain about rising prices while ignoring rents; see https://www.idiosyncraticwhisk.com/2017/10/housing-part-264-rent-is-how-we-consume.html https://www.idiosyncraticwhisk.com/2017/10/housing-part-264-... for further explanation
dragonwriter 8y ago
> A senior professional (in any field) cares about building a secure life, buying property, raising a family, saving for retirement. Sure, the capitalist-economy middle class is defined by having substantial property investments as well as labor income, but there's no reason that has to be in one's primary residence. There are pros and cons of tying up capital in an owner-occupied residence.
deathanatos 8y ago
> It's fundamentally _odd_ to me that people are looking at rental costs. The median housing price in SF is $1.6M. There is no choice but to rent, or perhaps suffer an absolutely terrible commute. (And since someone inevitably quips that the entire Bay Area makes $300k+: the $125k in the article is a bit low; the median tech salary is ~$135k. Some lucky souls pulling down massive stock benefits at a FAANG might be making enough total, but those of us not at a FAANG are not so lucky.)
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esoterica 8y ago
> It seems to be built around the idea that you spend your youth grinding in a rented flat, with rental furniture, using rental cars, buying every meal outside, so that in your 40's you might be able to move out and live a decent life with some modicum of security. Not everyone wants to live in a tacky huge McMansion that they can fill up with trinkets and garbage they don't use. See? I can make snarky judgemental comments about your lifestyle choices too. But seriously, not all "competent, rested (???), mature, well-rounded" individuals think living in an rental apartment in a vibrant, walkable neighborhood is the rank indignity you seem to believe it is. They're perfectly happy living in small spaces and spending their money on travel, hobbies, food, and saving for retirement instead.
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- deleted 8y ago
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tsunamifury 8y ago

I think you misunderstand that several workers out here rent because they can amass capital with their jobs in a more liquid format than buying a house. A house is a middle class investment opportunity, several people out here are making enough to focus more on flexibility and liquidity.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
esotericn 8y ago
I've had prolonged discussions about this elsewhere on HN, but I think if you're considering a house (or an apartment) to be an "investment opportunity", you've missed the point entirely. It's a home first and foremost, and a monetary asset second. If your model is 'grind your 20s-40s away living in a box and then move out' then I implore you to read my comment again.
- tsunamifury 8y ago
  I have a 1400 sqft apartment in Pacific Heights. It's hardly as bad as everyone wants to make it out to be. It's actually, by far, the nicest place I've ever lived. I think you really misunderstand the high quality of life can be in SF because of all the blogspam. Its hard at times, but it has significant rewards.
  - esotericn 8y ago
    Quite possibly. I often wonder if London looks worse externally than it actually is (you can afford a house or apartment here if you have a professional job, it's just probably going to involve commuting and not be in a prestigious area). Of course, if you're something actually socially useful like a teacher or fireman, you're buggerino'd. I use the term 'house' out of laziness. It's more a commentary on the fact that a 30 year old renting is just incompatible with a decent life in the UK (outside of some secure older council tenancies) whether you live on the ground floor or the fifth floor. You'll probably have to move every year or two - it's not yours to decorate - the furniture might not be yours - it's not a home, it's a longer-term hotel. That might be different elsewhere.
    - tsunamifury 8y ago
      I mean, if I wasn't here, I'd be in Belgravia or Mayfair. London is an amazing place and now about 10% cheaper than SF. It has 2 out of the 5 FAANG companies, but the tech scene is still not in the top 5 IMO compared to NYC, SF, SEA, Singapore and Tokyo. I'd love for that to change...
- timerol 8y ago
  If a house is a home, I'd rather be homeless. I personally view a house as more of a shackle than a benefit. I enjoy moving every 2-5 years. I value novelty over routine. My first 12 years of life were in the same home, but other than that I've been moving around regularly. I am in my late 20s currently, and I'm open to a change in perspective. Maybe there's value in consistency that I will appreciate more at some point. But being told that I won't count as a senior professional until I care about buying property irks me.

eli_gottlieb 8y ago

>A senior professional (in any field) cares about building a secure life, buying property, raising a family, saving for retirement. You're not going to afford to buy real-estate in San Francisco on a salary. Full stop. You don't buy multi-million-dollar houses when the company might go pear-shaped and leave you without a paycheck, even if your paycheck is in the six figures.

esotericn 8y ago
Exactly.
chrisseaton 8y ago
There are many homes for sale in SF for about a million dollars when I look. Isn’t that completely reasonable on a tech salary of a quarter of a million or so?
- eli_gottlieb 8y ago
  >Isn’t that completely reasonable on a tech salary of a quarter of a million or so? Isn't that double what was discussed in the article?
- geggam 8y ago
  Not when people are coming in 10-15% over ask full cash. You cannot compete with that using a mortgage.

AchieveLife 8y ago

Interesting perspective. From your profile it seems you live in London and maybe born there. The social life in the states (especially cities) is vastly different than European cultures. It would be helpful to us who are accustomed to American social life to learn about what you perceive your social life tied into your work life to be like.

esotericn 8y ago
I was born in a medium sized town in the North of England. There are a whole bunch of people in London doing the flat-share-can't-afford-anything-rent-it-all lifestyle too.

yonran 8y ago

> It's fundamentally _odd_ to me that people are looking at rental costs. I think it was good that he focused on rent instead of for-sale price. The sale price includes other factors (property taxes, interest rates, expectation of rent increases) that do not affect the cost of living, and many authors get confused when they complain about rising prices while ignoring rents; see https://www.idiosyncraticwhisk.com/2017/10/housing-part-264-rent-is-how-we-consume.html https://www.idiosyncraticwhisk.com/2017/10/housing-part-264-... for further explanation

dragonwriter 8y ago

> A senior professional (in any field) cares about building a secure life, buying property, raising a family, saving for retirement. Sure, the capitalist-economy middle class is defined by having substantial property investments as well as labor income, but there's no reason that has to be in one's primary residence. There are pros and cons of tying up capital in an owner-occupied residence.

deathanatos 8y ago

> It's fundamentally _odd_ to me that people are looking at rental costs. The median housing price in SF is $1.6M. There is no choice but to rent, or perhaps suffer an absolutely terrible commute. (And since someone inevitably quips that the entire Bay Area makes $300k+: the $125k in the article is a bit low; the median tech salary is ~$135k. Some lucky souls pulling down massive stock benefits at a FAANG might be making enough total, but those of us not at a FAANG are not so lucky.)

deleted 8y ago
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esoterica 8y ago

> It seems to be built around the idea that you spend your youth grinding in a rented flat, with rental furniture, using rental cars, buying every meal outside, so that in your 40's you might be able to move out and live a decent life with some modicum of security. Not everyone wants to live in a tacky huge McMansion that they can fill up with trinkets and garbage they don't use. See? I can make snarky judgemental comments about your lifestyle choices too. But seriously, not all "competent, rested (???), mature, well-rounded" individuals think living in an rental apartment in a vibrant, walkable neighborhood is the rank indignity you seem to believe it is. They're perfectly happy living in small spaces and spending their money on travel, hobbies, food, and saving for retirement instead.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
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