4 ms·

The article actually mentions kids. When talking about working in the bay area with technology people from the bay area I really get the impression that nobody

The article actually mentions kids. When talking about working in the bay area with technology people from the bay area I really get the impression that nobody there ever has children and everybody is sterilized. I don't think I have ever heard anybody talk about the bay area being great unless they were childless. Outside of the bay area I can actually afford to have children and a house without being a millionaire. Yeah, I know, its weird. I have enough money left over (even though I have kids and a large house) that my wife isn't forced into labor to prevent immediate financial ruin. I simply cannot imagine (I mean those words very literally) the horrid state of affairs of making six figures and still being on the verge of poverty.

otoburb 8y ago
>>I simply cannot imagine (I mean those words very literally) the horrid state of affairs of making six figures and still being on the verge of poverty. NYC is rolling out free schooling for children aged 3 and up, known as Pre-3K[1]. It's not a full solution, but it helps alleviate some of the childcare costs in the early years. The article mentioned: "One semi-local daycare in Manhattan quoted me a waitlist two years deep." Some daycares are in high-demand, but there are also other decent private daycares where the waitlist is (much) shorter or non-existent. While the caregiver outlay is believable, the waitlist datapoint sounds like it was cherry-picked. Depending on the age their child, the author might have had access to free public Pre-3K or Pre-K programs too. [1] https://www.schools.nyc.gov/enrollment/enroll-grade-by-grade/3k https://www.schools.nyc.gov/enrollment/enroll-grade-by-grade...
- austincheney 8y ago
  Day cares with wait lists is also something I have never heard of even though I have children and gone through the day care thing and socialize with people who have children. That is so unbelievably foreign to me.
  - otoburb 8y ago
    It was also totally foreign for us too, but after the initial shock wore off we put in some time and found other options quickly enough.
  - kohanz 8y ago
    In my experience it's not limited to large metro populations with high COL. We live in a mid-sized Canadian city (~400k population) with a relatively low cost of living and the preferred daycares here all have waiting lists. Basically, if you don't get on them soon after your child is born (or about 12 months before you intend them to start), you'll be left with a lot less choice when they're ready to start.
    - 99052882514569 8y ago
      It is basically limited to places where child care is a) heavily regulated, and b) left up to private providers. Two obvious solutions present themselves: de-regulate and let the kiddos sink or swim; b) have the government either pay for daycare or run them. There are probably others, but no one in Ontario at least seems to have figured one out.
      - kohanz 8y ago
        Hard to see either solution coming into play anytime soon. Option (a) is likely out due to recent-enough-to-be-remembered tragedies pushing regulation in the opposite direction and Option (b) seems antithetical to the recently-elected government's style. Also, incorporating this promise into the NDP's election platform didn't seem to help them much. As you can tell, I'm not optimistic ;)
  - recursive 8y ago
    I live in a 60k population town, and there's a waiting list for my son's day care.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    Education in NYC specifically is a clusterfuck of school choice, because school choice doesn't scale up to a school district that has a million-plus kids. As a result of citywide school choice, people don't really get gentrified out by parents looking for good schools. But many kids will also have really long commute time, and applying for middle and high schools is like a mini college application process, and only people with the time and money can truly navigate it.
    - otoburb 8y ago
      I think pretty much any school district with a million+ children is going to have issues, whether school choice is implemented, or not. Mayor De Blasio kicked off an integration effort[1] in Brooklyn with plans to roll something similar in the other NYC school districts in an effort to counteract the mini-college application process, with mixed reactions depending on where your child would have placed. Reforms are under way for both middle and high school admissions. [1] https://nypost.com/2018/09/20/de-blasio-kills-admissions-standards-to-diversify-brooklyn-school-district/ https://nypost.com/2018/09/20/de-blasio-kills-admissions-sta...
      - bobthepanda 8y ago
        There will always be issues, but school choice resulted in - general confusion; the guide to high schools, for example, is bigger than the Yellow Pages, and that's with all the information of a high school summarized into a single-sided page. Couple that with Bloomberg splitting failing schools with five schools in the same building and it's just far too overwhelming. - horrible commute times. Schools were designed to serve their local neighborhoods and usually aren't placed well, particularly in the outer boroughs. If you have to go to a school other than your neighborhood school it can be quite the schlep, especially once you factor in start times. It's impossible to design start times that work for everyone when students come across the entire city, and the lack of coordination also affects things like the overburdened public transport, which gets slammed when schools let out. - extreme stress on parents and students. You have to go around and tour schools. You have to meet with teachers and principals. You have to attend multiple massive school fairs with staff pushing their schools on you. It's like a college application process, already stressful enough, except you're doing this to children going through puberty. It's absolute madness for even wealthy parents with time to do all of this; working class people working long hours or odd hours or multiple jobs basically don't have a shot. And can you imagine what not getting into your top choices does to kids' well-being? If school choice were limited to the borough level, it would be more manageable. But at the city level it's far too much.
tibbon 8y ago
This. I'm living in Boston, which admittedly also has a pretty terrible cost of living, although not yet quite NYC or SF. Somerville is trying really hard to catch up though. It's hard enough here to be able to have space for a partner and/or kids, and maybe 100 sq ft of grass in a yard - but it's at least imaginable, and possible to have a semi-decent commute. I don't know what Facebook or someone would have to pay me to move to SF and be able to imagine similar. $400-500k? Like, the concept of owning property in SF with any amount of space is mind boggling. Same with NYC. I don't want a 90-minute commute daily. Priorities for me right now are: - Space for at least a 1 car garage (in which to keep tools, projects, and a few motorcycles) - At least 100 sq ft of grass/yard - 3 bedrooms for myself, my partner, music and potentially family expansion - A decent commute (under an hour, preferably 30 minutes or less) - A decent kitchen and space to entertain a dozen or so friends for dinner - A down payment that isn't going to be $200k This isn't going to happen in SF or NYC. Maybe if I live in NJ or San Mateo? I'll stay with my already-higher than this article mentions salary, and have some prospect of space and such.
- alexhutcheson 8y ago
  > Maybe if I live in NJ or San Mateo? NJ commute into a Manhattan office from a suburban home like you describe would pretty much never be less than 50-55 minutes each way, and often longer.
- coredog64 8y ago
  New Jersey housing costs are completely crazy as well, at least for the places that have a reasonable commute to NYC. In addition to the high cost of the houses, you have to factor in the absolutely crazy property taxes. If you don't buy a house but instead rent, larger complexes have insane "maintenance fees".
- matchbok 8y ago
  Have a lot of friends moving to NJ - still relatively affordable and very close to Manhattan. Jersey City is quite nice and very kid friendly!
  - 8y ago
peterburkimsher 8y ago
How do I get a job outside the Bay Area? I've been trying to find a job since March, unemployed since August. Some people have suggested that moving to a tech hub is essential to get a job.
- astura 8y ago
  I've never lived in a tech hub and I've always been able to find a job. The first job was very, very difficult, but since then it's been fine. I just look for publicly posted job openings. I've solely worked in B2B companies. However, sometimes it takes a while. Especially now that I'm really picky with jobs. However, if you live out in the boonies where the only employer is Walmart you'll definitely need to move or get a remote gig.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  If you have the means, relocate. Chicago has a lot of jobs, same with the Milwaukee area. While the COL can vary, it will definitely be better than the bay area. The other factor, leave your location off your resume. Sure it will show you worked at companies in a specific area. Just don't include an actual home address. And then have a "go bag" ready.
- jinushaun 8y ago
  Where do you live? There is tech demand everywhere. You don't have to live in SF, NY, Seattle or DC to get tech jobs. But these are probably going to be standard office jobs at non-tech companies doing boring work. Pay is lower, but so is cost of living.
Balgair 8y ago
Hearing about the challenges of raising kiddos in the Bay is also refreshing to me. I've a lot of friends that would love to have kiddos, but the costs and 'hassle' of child-rearing in the Bay are just too much. Kids are hard enough without 2 hours of commuting per day. Also, though the article is focused on tech workers, the Bay actually does have other inhabitants. I went out for an interview for a biotech position on the Peninsula recently. Overall, it went well and they offered me $60k. My jaw, of course, needed to be picked off the floor. When I mentioned that, per CA state law, even auto-mechanics make that without a HS degree in their city, let alone the BS/MS/PhD that they required for the position, the company said "well, that's the going rate". I asked if they had hook-ups/dump-points for the RV I would be inhabiting in the parking lot. The req. is still open all these months later. Tech, and Prop 13, have severely distorted the CA property market to near total dysfunction for proper societal functioning.
- ChuckMcM 8y ago
  Prop 13 only applies when people don't sell. There is actually a lot of property turnover in the Bay Area and that resets the tax basis to the current sale. A measure that would let people over 55 transfer their tax basis failed to pass. As a result difference in tax base due to Prop 13 it much less than you might expect.
defen 8y ago
> When talking about working in the bay area with technology people from the bay area I really get the impression that nobody there ever has children and everybody is sterilized. This is the great slow-motion tragedy of cities, especially in the modern era. The phrase I've heard is "IQ Shredder". It's probably not great for society in the long run to concentrate your smartest, hardest working, most conscientious people into a few large metros where an unwinnable rat-race leads to them having zero or 1 kids, since parental IQ has a large influence children's IQ.
- MRD85 8y ago
  But that is getting dangerously close to implying that different humans have different potential intelligence, and that's a very politically dangerous path to go down. The racial history of the US seems to make it a specially sensitive country to this issue.
  - pc86 8y ago
    I would hope on HN of all places people wouldn't devolve into political flame wars and race baiting just because a completely factually accurate statement offends their sensibilities.
    - pc86 8y ago
      I see that I'm wrong.
      - MRD85 8y ago
        I wasn't attempting to race bait. I was mentioning that this is a hard issue to discuss in a lot of circles due to historical reasons. A lot of people hear race when you say "there are differences in intelligence and some part of that is genetic", a statement which doesn't mention race at all! I'm actually quite concerned personally about the effects of high IQ couples not having children and low IQ couples having a lot but it's not an easy discussion to have since, as I mentioned, people see it as a racist argument when I don't mention race at all.

otoburb 8y ago

>>I simply cannot imagine (I mean those words very literally) the horrid state of affairs of making six figures and still being on the verge of poverty. NYC is rolling out free schooling for children aged 3 and up, known as Pre-3K[1]. It's not a full solution, but it helps alleviate some of the childcare costs in the early years. The article mentioned: "One semi-local daycare in Manhattan quoted me a waitlist two years deep." Some daycares are in high-demand, but there are also other decent private daycares where the waitlist is (much) shorter or non-existent. While the caregiver outlay is believable, the waitlist datapoint sounds like it was cherry-picked. Depending on the age their child, the author might have had access to free public Pre-3K or Pre-K programs too. [1] https://www.schools.nyc.gov/enrollment/enroll-grade-by-grade/3k https://www.schools.nyc.gov/enrollment/enroll-grade-by-grade...

austincheney 8y ago
Day cares with wait lists is also something I have never heard of even though I have children and gone through the day care thing and socialize with people who have children. That is so unbelievably foreign to me.
- otoburb 8y ago
  It was also totally foreign for us too, but after the initial shock wore off we put in some time and found other options quickly enough.
- kohanz 8y ago
  In my experience it's not limited to large metro populations with high COL. We live in a mid-sized Canadian city (~400k population) with a relatively low cost of living and the preferred daycares here all have waiting lists. Basically, if you don't get on them soon after your child is born (or about 12 months before you intend them to start), you'll be left with a lot less choice when they're ready to start.
  - 99052882514569 8y ago
    It is basically limited to places where child care is a) heavily regulated, and b) left up to private providers. Two obvious solutions present themselves: de-regulate and let the kiddos sink or swim; b) have the government either pay for daycare or run them. There are probably others, but no one in Ontario at least seems to have figured one out.
    - kohanz 8y ago
      Hard to see either solution coming into play anytime soon. Option (a) is likely out due to recent-enough-to-be-remembered tragedies pushing regulation in the opposite direction and Option (b) seems antithetical to the recently-elected government's style. Also, incorporating this promise into the NDP's election platform didn't seem to help them much. As you can tell, I'm not optimistic ;)
- recursive 8y ago
  I live in a 60k population town, and there's a waiting list for my son's day care.
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  Education in NYC specifically is a clusterfuck of school choice, because school choice doesn't scale up to a school district that has a million-plus kids. As a result of citywide school choice, people don't really get gentrified out by parents looking for good schools. But many kids will also have really long commute time, and applying for middle and high schools is like a mini college application process, and only people with the time and money can truly navigate it.
  - otoburb 8y ago
    I think pretty much any school district with a million+ children is going to have issues, whether school choice is implemented, or not. Mayor De Blasio kicked off an integration effort[1] in Brooklyn with plans to roll something similar in the other NYC school districts in an effort to counteract the mini-college application process, with mixed reactions depending on where your child would have placed. Reforms are under way for both middle and high school admissions. [1] https://nypost.com/2018/09/20/de-blasio-kills-admissions-standards-to-diversify-brooklyn-school-district/ https://nypost.com/2018/09/20/de-blasio-kills-admissions-sta...
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      There will always be issues, but school choice resulted in - general confusion; the guide to high schools, for example, is bigger than the Yellow Pages, and that's with all the information of a high school summarized into a single-sided page. Couple that with Bloomberg splitting failing schools with five schools in the same building and it's just far too overwhelming. - horrible commute times. Schools were designed to serve their local neighborhoods and usually aren't placed well, particularly in the outer boroughs. If you have to go to a school other than your neighborhood school it can be quite the schlep, especially once you factor in start times. It's impossible to design start times that work for everyone when students come across the entire city, and the lack of coordination also affects things like the overburdened public transport, which gets slammed when schools let out. - extreme stress on parents and students. You have to go around and tour schools. You have to meet with teachers and principals. You have to attend multiple massive school fairs with staff pushing their schools on you. It's like a college application process, already stressful enough, except you're doing this to children going through puberty. It's absolute madness for even wealthy parents with time to do all of this; working class people working long hours or odd hours or multiple jobs basically don't have a shot. And can you imagine what not getting into your top choices does to kids' well-being? If school choice were limited to the borough level, it would be more manageable. But at the city level it's far too much.

tibbon 8y ago

This. I'm living in Boston, which admittedly also has a pretty terrible cost of living, although not yet quite NYC or SF. Somerville is trying really hard to catch up though. It's hard enough here to be able to have space for a partner and/or kids, and maybe 100 sq ft of grass in a yard - but it's at least imaginable, and possible to have a semi-decent commute. I don't know what Facebook or someone would have to pay me to move to SF and be able to imagine similar. $400-500k? Like, the concept of owning property in SF with any amount of space is mind boggling. Same with NYC. I don't want a 90-minute commute daily. Priorities for me right now are: - Space for at least a 1 car garage (in which to keep tools, projects, and a few motorcycles) - At least 100 sq ft of grass/yard - 3 bedrooms for myself, my partner, music and potentially family expansion - A decent commute (under an hour, preferably 30 minutes or less) - A decent kitchen and space to entertain a dozen or so friends for dinner - A down payment that isn't going to be $200k This isn't going to happen in SF or NYC. Maybe if I live in NJ or San Mateo? I'll stay with my already-higher than this article mentions salary, and have some prospect of space and such.

alexhutcheson 8y ago
> Maybe if I live in NJ or San Mateo? NJ commute into a Manhattan office from a suburban home like you describe would pretty much never be less than 50-55 minutes each way, and often longer.
coredog64 8y ago
New Jersey housing costs are completely crazy as well, at least for the places that have a reasonable commute to NYC. In addition to the high cost of the houses, you have to factor in the absolutely crazy property taxes. If you don't buy a house but instead rent, larger complexes have insane "maintenance fees".
matchbok 8y ago
Have a lot of friends moving to NJ - still relatively affordable and very close to Manhattan. Jersey City is quite nice and very kid friendly!
- 8y ago

peterburkimsher 8y ago

How do I get a job outside the Bay Area? I've been trying to find a job since March, unemployed since August. Some people have suggested that moving to a tech hub is essential to get a job.

astura 8y ago
I've never lived in a tech hub and I've always been able to find a job. The first job was very, very difficult, but since then it's been fine. I just look for publicly posted job openings. I've solely worked in B2B companies. However, sometimes it takes a while. Especially now that I'm really picky with jobs. However, if you live out in the boonies where the only employer is Walmart you'll definitely need to move or get a remote gig.
paulie_a 8y ago
If you have the means, relocate. Chicago has a lot of jobs, same with the Milwaukee area. While the COL can vary, it will definitely be better than the bay area. The other factor, leave your location off your resume. Sure it will show you worked at companies in a specific area. Just don't include an actual home address. And then have a "go bag" ready.
jinushaun 8y ago
Where do you live? There is tech demand everywhere. You don't have to live in SF, NY, Seattle or DC to get tech jobs. But these are probably going to be standard office jobs at non-tech companies doing boring work. Pay is lower, but so is cost of living.

Balgair 8y ago

Hearing about the challenges of raising kiddos in the Bay is also refreshing to me. I've a lot of friends that would love to have kiddos, but the costs and 'hassle' of child-rearing in the Bay are just too much. Kids are hard enough without 2 hours of commuting per day. Also, though the article is focused on tech workers, the Bay actually does have other inhabitants. I went out for an interview for a biotech position on the Peninsula recently. Overall, it went well and they offered me $60k. My jaw, of course, needed to be picked off the floor. When I mentioned that, per CA state law, even auto-mechanics make that without a HS degree in their city, let alone the BS/MS/PhD that they required for the position, the company said "well, that's the going rate". I asked if they had hook-ups/dump-points for the RV I would be inhabiting in the parking lot. The req. is still open all these months later. Tech, and Prop 13, have severely distorted the CA property market to near total dysfunction for proper societal functioning.

ChuckMcM 8y ago
Prop 13 only applies when people don't sell. There is actually a lot of property turnover in the Bay Area and that resets the tax basis to the current sale. A measure that would let people over 55 transfer their tax basis failed to pass. As a result difference in tax base due to Prop 13 it much less than you might expect.

defen 8y ago

> When talking about working in the bay area with technology people from the bay area I really get the impression that nobody there ever has children and everybody is sterilized. This is the great slow-motion tragedy of cities, especially in the modern era. The phrase I've heard is "IQ Shredder". It's probably not great for society in the long run to concentrate your smartest, hardest working, most conscientious people into a few large metros where an unwinnable rat-race leads to them having zero or 1 kids, since parental IQ has a large influence children's IQ.

MRD85 8y ago
But that is getting dangerously close to implying that different humans have different potential intelligence, and that's a very politically dangerous path to go down. The racial history of the US seems to make it a specially sensitive country to this issue.
- pc86 8y ago
  I would hope on HN of all places people wouldn't devolve into political flame wars and race baiting just because a completely factually accurate statement offends their sensibilities.
  - pc86 8y ago
    I see that I'm wrong.
    - MRD85 8y ago
      I wasn't attempting to race bait. I was mentioning that this is a hard issue to discuss in a lot of circles due to historical reasons. A lot of people hear race when you say "there are differences in intelligence and some part of that is genetic", a statement which doesn't mention race at all! I'm actually quite concerned personally about the effects of high IQ couples not having children and low IQ couples having a lot but it's not an easy discussion to have since, as I mentioned, people see it as a racist argument when I don't mention race at all.